You are not logged in.

41

Saturday, August 24th 2013, 3:44am

No worries :)
You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
Sneak home and pray you'll never know
The hell where youth and laughter go.
-Siegfried Sassoon

42

Tuesday, August 27th 2013, 5:41am

Conversion of the last Pisa class cruiser to a testbead for a 152mm automatic twin turret.
Cost: 1930 tons per ship
Time: 4.1805 months per ship (Just over one quarter)
Modifications: Replacement of old 152mm Quad turrets with 152mm twin automatic prototypes. Removal of weapons not required for testing. Addition of light AA defense battery. Refurbishment of internal fittings.

Coatit Conversion, Italian Light Cruiser laid down 1924

Displacement:
7,722 t light; 8,205 t standard; 9,511 t normal; 10,556 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
578.20 ft / 574.15 ft x 62.66 ft x 19.69 ft (normal load)
176.23 m / 175.00 m x 19.10 m x 6.00 m

Armament:
12 - 5.98" / 152 mm guns (4x3 guns), 107.15lbs / 48.60kg shells, 1943 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1943 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 1,304 lbs / 592 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 400

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.94" / 100 mm 373.33 ft / 113.79 m 9.51 ft / 2.90 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.31" / 135 mm 2.76" / 70 mm 2.76" / 70 mm

- Armour deck: 1.57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 2.76" / 70 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 72,000 shp / 53,712 Kw = 30.92 kts
Range 5,000nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,352 tons

Complement:
481 - 626

Cost:
£2.368 million / $9.473 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 195 tons, 2.1 %
Armour: 1,582 tons, 16.6 %
- Belts: 585 tons, 6.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 290 tons, 3.0 %
- Armour Deck: 680 tons, 7.1 %
- Conning Tower: 27 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,372 tons, 24.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,533 tons, 37.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,789 tons, 18.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 0.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
11,064 lbs / 5,018 Kg = 103.3 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 1.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
Metacentric height 3.3 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 14.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.29
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.470
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.16 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.96 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Forecastle (17 %): 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.33 ft / 6.50 m (11.48 ft / 3.50 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (17 %): 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Stern: 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Average freeboard: 16.52 ft / 5.03 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 151.6 %
Waterplane Area: 23,340 Square feet or 2,168 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 120 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 101 lbs/sq ft or 493 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.11
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
Sneak home and pray you'll never know
The hell where youth and laughter go.
-Siegfried Sassoon

43

Tuesday, August 27th 2013, 6:28am

Reconstruction of Francesco Ferrucio
Cost: 3213 tons
Time: 7.7135 months per ship (Just under three quarters)
Modifications: Buldged to 18m. Refurbishment of the main battery with 152mm DP guns, with removal of Q turret. Replacement of Anti-Aircraft batteries with modern 76mm, 37mm, and 25mm weaponry. Modernization of Seaplane handling equipment. Addition of airgroup of 6 Cierva R1 Helicopters. Addition of modern electronic suite. Replacement of engines with lighter mixed Diesel-Steam Electric drive. New armor layout.

Francesco Ferrucio, Italian Air Support Cruiser laid down 1925 (Engine 1943)

Displacement:
6,427 t light; 6,701 t standard; 7,767 t normal; 8,621 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
539.26 ft / 524.93 ft x 52.49 ft (Bulges 59.06 ft) x 19.49 ft (normal load)
164.37 m / 160.00 m x 16.00 m (Bulges 18.00 m) x 5.94 m

Armament:
4 - 5.98" / 152 mm guns (2x2 guns), 99.21lbs / 45.00kg shells, 1943 Model
Dual purpose guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 2.99" / 76.0 mm guns in single mounts, 14.26lbs / 6.47kg shells, 1943 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all forward
16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1943 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all aft
20 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (10x2 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1943 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 488 lbs / 221 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 400

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.76" / 70 mm 341.21 ft / 104.00 m 8.69 ft / 2.65 m
Ends: 0.98" / 25 mm 183.69 ft / 55.99 m 8.69 ft / 2.65 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.31" / 135 mm 2.76" / 70 mm 2.76" / 70 mm
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm - -
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.18" / 30 mm, Conning tower: 2.76" / 70 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 66,000 shp / 49,236 Kw = 30.98 kts
Range 5,500nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,920 tons

Complement:
413 - 537

Cost:
£1.698 million / $6.793 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 66 tons, 0.8 %
Armour: 942 tons, 12.1 %
- Belts: 398 tons, 5.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 137 tons, 1.8 %
- Armour Deck: 384 tons, 4.9 %
- Conning Tower: 23 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 1,705 tons, 21.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,689 tons, 34.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,341 tons, 17.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,025 tons, 13.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
9,542 lbs / 4,328 Kg = 89.1 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 1.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.18
Metacentric height 2.6 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 15.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.12
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.450
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.89 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.91 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Forecastle (12 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Mid (70 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m (9.84 ft / 3.00 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (12 %): 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Stern: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Average freeboard: 16.81 ft / 5.12 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 140.7 %
Waterplane Area: 17,577 Square feet or 1,633 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 132 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 90 lbs/sq ft or 442 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.32
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

6 Cierva R1 ASW/Rec (600t)
2 Crated Spare Cierva R1 (50t)
200t Aircraft operations center
50t RaA.6 Air Search radar
20t RaA.5 Air Search radar
20t RaS.4 Surface Search radar x2
30t 2 x GDR1R FC Systems
30t 6 x GDR5 FC Systems
Inert gas AVGAS Shielding (50t)
Seaplane Handeling facilites (50t)
Flag Facilites (50t)
Reserve (25t)
You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
Sneak home and pray you'll never know
The hell where youth and laughter go.
-Siegfried Sassoon

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "snip" (Aug 31st 2013, 1:23am)


44

Tuesday, August 27th 2013, 8:47am

Refit of the San Calepodio& San Calimero
Cost: 3453 tons
Time: 7.953 months per ship (Just under three quarters)
Modifications: Refurbishment of the main battery with 152mm DP guns. Replacement of Anti-Aircraft batteries with modern 76mm, 37mm, and 25mm weaponry. Addition of modern electronic sensors and other miscellaneous equipment. Removal of torpedo tubes. New 62,000SHP engines lighter then the originals.

San Calepodio (Refit), Italian Cruiser laid down 1932 (Engine 1943)

Displacement:
6,905 t light; 7,337 t standard; 8,751 t normal; 9,882 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
579.02 ft / 557.74 ft x 58.73 ft x 18.70 ft (normal load)
176.48 m / 170.00 m x 17.90 m x 5.70 m

Armament:
8 - 5.98" / 152 mm guns (4x2 guns), 99.21lbs / 45.00kg shells, 1943 Model
Dual purpose guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 2.99" / 76.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 14.86lbs / 6.74kg shells, 1943 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1943 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
12 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1943 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 1,056 lbs / 479 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 400

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.76" / 70 mm 360.89 ft / 110.00 m 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 1.18" / 30 mm 229.66 ft / 70.00 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.31" / 135 mm 2.76" / 70 mm 2.76" / 70 mm
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 2.76" / 70 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 62,000 shp / 46,252 Kw = 31.11 kts
Range 4,200nm at 25.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,545 tons

Complement:
452 - 588

Cost:
£2.661 million / $10.644 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 142 tons, 1.6 %
Armour: 1,536 tons, 17.6 %
- Belts: 579 tons, 6.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 271 tons, 3.1 %
- Armour Deck: 661 tons, 7.6 %
- Conning Tower: 25 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 1,601 tons, 18.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,150 tons, 36.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,845 tons, 21.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 475 tons, 5.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
12,567 lbs / 5,700 Kg = 117.3 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 2.9 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 14.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 57 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.26
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.500
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27.06 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 31.17 ft / 9.50 m
- Forecastle (24 %): 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Mid (40 %): 21.33 ft / 6.50 m (13.12 ft / 4.00 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (22 %): 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Stern: 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 17.35 ft / 5.29 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 148.8 %
Waterplane Area: 22,695 Square feet or 2,108 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 138 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 93 lbs/sq ft or 452 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.17
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
Sneak home and pray you'll never know
The hell where youth and laughter go.
-Siegfried Sassoon

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "snip" (Aug 31st 2013, 1:27am)


45

Tuesday, August 27th 2013, 11:22am

You might want to fix the 1x12 37mm and 1x12 25mm mounts on the San Calepodio. One of those SS report slips we all make!

Where will all those 76mm mounts go? I'm a tad sceptical for several reasons. First is deckspace, I can see the obvious replacement of the five 47mm mounts around the superstructure but fitting eight seems you'll have to reduce the numbers of ship's boats, and of course ditching the torpedoes add enough room for two sided mounts in Q position. The 47mm right aft is impossible for a hoist mount. Also the 47mm were all deck mounts so you need to do some major cutting and internal works. Plus you need to squeeze in 76mm magazines into the ship (probably another reason to change the machinery to slightly more compact modern sets).
Add the smaller light AA and you've some serious space issues. RA's drawing shows a fairly cramped design already. Saying that I fully understand why you've added more AA and 76mm guns, the original design was woefully protected without any secondary armament or lighter AA. An expensive but necessary job, I just think you've stretched this refit a little too far for the size of the ship.

46

Tuesday, August 27th 2013, 12:28pm

Quoted

Originally posted by snip
Replacement of engines with lighter mixed Diesel-Steam Electric drive.

Out of curiosity, has Italy ever done anything like that before?

HoOmAn

Keeper of the Sacred Block Coefficient

  • Send private message

47

Tuesday, August 27th 2013, 2:00pm

Why 500ts of misc weight? Thats a lot...

48

Tuesday, August 27th 2013, 3:01pm

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
Why 500ts of misc weight? Thats a lot...

At a guess, it's for the 152mm automatic guns.

HoOmAn

Keeper of the Sacred Block Coefficient

  • Send private message

49

Tuesday, August 27th 2013, 4:52pm

Shouln't these be simulated as triples instead?

50

Tuesday, August 27th 2013, 5:14pm

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
Shouln't these be simulated as triples instead?

I know there are a few people who prefer to sim twin automatic guns as triples, but there's no mandate to sim them that way.

51

Tuesday, August 27th 2013, 6:08pm

@Brock: Mixed Steam-Diesle & Electric Drives. I think putting the two together on one ship on a test basis is posible.

@Hood: These carry one less mount per side then the Sant' Achilleo and San Bacco refits earlier in the thread. Given that four of the mounts are elevated, they should fit. I agree it will be tight, but these ships had practically no secondary to begin with.

@Hoo: The 500t is for various electronics, a helo or two, and other such niceties that I have not yet defined as I was about to fall asleep on the keyboard. As crazy as it sounds (to me at least) going from the picture and notes it looks like this class was originally equipped with some sort of sonar, not sure if that will stay. The only ship getting 152mm automatics is the Coatit, and those are simed as trips. That ship is the testbead for the twin 152mm auto, the others are just having LA 152mm guns refurbished to DP guns.
You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
Sneak home and pray you'll never know
The hell where youth and laughter go.
-Siegfried Sassoon

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "snip" (Aug 27th 2013, 6:16pm)


52

Tuesday, August 27th 2013, 7:00pm

Quoted

Originally posted by snip
@Brock: Mixed Steam-Diesle & Electric Drives. I think putting the two together on one ship on a test basis is posible.

Mhm, I just wondered if it's been done before. Who's providing the diesels? Sulzer, or B&W?

53

Tuesday, August 27th 2013, 7:03pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine

Quoted

Originally posted by snip
@Brock: Mixed Steam-Diesle & Electric Drives. I think putting the two together on one ship on a test basis is posible.

Mhm, I just wondered if it's been done before. Who's providing the diesels? Sulzer, or B&W?


Historically, Fiat did marine diesels. I think they were derived from MAN designs.

54

Tuesday, August 27th 2013, 7:05pm

Seeing as Isotta-Fraschini has done diesels for the Italian military, I would assume them tho Fiat would work as well.
You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
Sneak home and pray you'll never know
The hell where youth and laughter go.
-Siegfried Sassoon

55

Tuesday, August 27th 2013, 7:07pm

Fiat? Pfft... I guess Italy would kinda have to order from them, too, or risk problems from the 'not built here' crowd.

56

Wednesday, August 28th 2013, 9:39am

I may be losing my marbles but didn't RA once do a diesel-steam-electric powerplant? I'm sure he did a steam-electric powerplant several times.
Not sure its the best choice for a cruiser but it has merit to tinker about with.

57

Wednesday, August 28th 2013, 9:47am

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
I may be losing my marbles but didn't RA once do a diesel-steam-electric powerplant? I'm sure he did a steam-electric powerplant several times.
Not sure its the best choice for a cruiser but it has merit to tinker about with.


I could see the merits. The electric motors are what is actually running the props regardless of what powers them. Use the diesels for cruising for the extra range, use the turbines for high speed. May take a bit to get the turbines up to temp/speed from cold, so they'd probably have to be running, if only at low power, all the time to allow for getting up to steam/speed faster.

58

Saturday, August 31st 2013, 1:23am

Correcting a few errors in the last two refits. Please check the relivent posts.
You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
Sneak home and pray you'll never know
The hell where youth and laughter go.
-Siegfried Sassoon