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1

Monday, June 27th 2016, 10:44am

Life Extension Refit Part II

Playing around with the life extension refit of the Shah Jahan, i found out, that the pics doesn't match the sim ???

Quoted

Original Sim:
Displacement:
26,378 t light; 27,997 t standard; 30,208 t normal; 31,977 t full load

Dimensions:
Length overall / water x beam x draught
691.25 ft / 679.13 ft x 99.74 ft x 28.38 ft (normal load)
210.69 m / 207.00 m x 30.40 m x 8.65 m

Armament:
8 - 13.78" / 350 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1,308.33lbs / 593.45kg shells, 1929 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (4x2 guns), 103.21lbs / 46.82kg shells, 1929 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.22lbs / 15.98kg shells, 1929 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
16 - 1.38" / 35.1 mm guns (8x2 guns), 1.31lbs / 0.59kg shells, 1929 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1929 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 11,878 lbs / 5,388 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 15.0" / 380 mm 398.00 ft / 121.31 m 11.80 ft / 3.60 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 90 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.00" / 25 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 26.00 ft / 7.92 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.8" / 400 mm 11.8" / 300 mm 13.8" / 350 mm
2nd: 3.15" / 80 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 3.15" / 80 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
4th: 0.78" / 20 mm - -

- Armour deck: 4.52" / 115 mm, Conning tower: 14.17" / 360 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 99,195 shp / 74,000 Kw = 27.94 kts
Range 14,200nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,980 tons

Complement:
1,145 - 1,489

Cost:
£10.388 million / $41.552 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,485 tons, 4.9 %
Armour: 9,876 tons, 32.7 %
- Belts: 3,112 tons, 10.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 385 tons, 1.3 %
- Armament: 2,130 tons, 7.1 %
- Armour Deck: 3,953 tons, 13.1 %
- Conning Tower: 296 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 3,047 tons, 10.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,871 tons, 39.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,830 tons, 12.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 125 tons, 0.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
41,784 lbs / 18,953 Kg = 31.9 x 13.8 " / 350 mm shells or 6.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 6.0 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 17.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.51
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.12

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.81 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.06 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (0 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.60 ft / 6.28 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 157.3 %
Waterplane Area: 47,273 Square feet or 4,392 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 183 lbs/sq ft or 894 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.42
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform


Neither this picture ....

nor this one .....

fits with the sim. May be Rocky could enlighten me a little bit, what's the idea behind.

Does anybody of you have a problem that i will modify the refit sim that it will better fit with the pic (raised mounts will be kept as raised mounts as shown in the pic [3rd / 4th / 5th armament])

Comments for the refit are warm welcome (useful or useless).

2

Monday, June 27th 2016, 2:09pm

Here is my try to sim the refit:

Quoted


Displacement:
26.365 t light; 27.996 t standard; 30.207 t normal; 31.976 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
691,25 ft / 679,13 ft x 99,74 ft x 28,38 ft (normal load)
210,69 m / 207,00 m x 30,40 m x 8,65 m

Armament:
8 - 13,78" / 350 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1.308,33lbs / 593,45kg shells, 1929 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 5,91" / 150 mm guns (4x2 guns), 102,98lbs / 46,71kg shells, 1947 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 1947 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
40 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns (20x2 guns), 1,95lbs / 0,88kg shells, 1947 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
60 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns (30x2 guns), 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1947 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 11.962 lbs / 5.426 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 15,0" / 380 mm 398,00 ft / 121,31 m 11,81 ft / 3,60 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 90% of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,00" / 25 mm 400,00 ft / 121,92 m 25,98 ft / 7,92 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15,7" / 400 mm 11,8" / 300 mm 13,8" / 350 mm
2nd: 3,15" / 80 mm 1,38" / 35 mm 3,15" / 80 mm
3rd: 1,97" / 50 mm - -
4th: 1,00" / 25 mm - -
5th: 1,00" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 4,53" / 115 mm, Conning tower: 14,17" / 360 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 99.196 shp / 74.000 Kw = 27,94 kts
Range 14.200nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3.980 tons

Complement:
1.145 - 1.489

Cost:
£10,421 million / $41,684 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.495 tons, 4,9%
Armour: 9.951 tons, 32,9%
- Belts: 3.117 tons, 10,3%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 385 tons, 1,3%
- Armament: 2.194 tons, 7,3%
- Armour Deck: 3.959 tons, 13,1%
- Conning Tower: 296 tons, 1,0%
Machinery: 3.047 tons, 10,1%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11.748 tons, 38,9%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.842 tons, 12,7%
Miscellaneous weights: 125 tons, 0,4%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
40.723 lbs / 18.472 Kg = 31,1 x 13,8 " / 350 mm shells or 6,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
Metacentric height 5,9 ft / 1,8 m
Roll period: 17,2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 69 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,53
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,12

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,550
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,81 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,06 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25,98 ft / 7,92 m
- Forecastle (25%): 20,01 ft / 6,10 m
- Mid (0%): 20,01 ft / 6,10 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 20,01 ft / 6,10 m
- Stern: 20,01 ft / 6,10 m
- Average freeboard: 20,61 ft / 6,28 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90,1%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 157,4%
Waterplane Area: 47.272 Square feet or 4.392 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 181 lbs/sq ft or 884 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,94
- Longitudinal: 1,39
- Overall: 0,98
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent



The problem is, that i can't achieve a 1.00 overall strength ?( ?( ?(

Rocky must provided the values with decimals.

Any ideas from the comrades ?

3

Monday, June 27th 2016, 2:35pm

Your hull strength issue is probably that my original seems to lack hoists on the 105s and yours includes them. I don't know why I did it that way, or why some of the mounts are raised when I'd have gone with the as-illustrated all-main-deck disposition.

4

Monday, June 27th 2016, 2:45pm

...when did China pick up that ship? ?(

5

Monday, June 27th 2016, 2:59pm

Your hull strength issue is probably that my original seems to lack hoists on the 105s and yours includes them. I don't know why I did it that way, or why some of the mounts are raised when I'd have gone with the as-illustrated all-main-deck disposition.

No, even if i use "Deck mounts" the result is the same


...when did China pick up that ship? ?(


China purchased the vessel in 1945 (after Sino-Chosen-War).

By the way .... a current OOB will be published with the next SIM-REPORT ;) .... i have finished my update of the vessels.

6

Monday, June 27th 2016, 3:50pm

Maybe it's all the new AA guns?

7

Monday, June 27th 2016, 5:14pm

Nope :( I have reduced the number and the type and it still doesn't work :( Also in my eyes some strong AA armament is necessary to fight against the threat of enemy airforces, so i won't reduce the numbers.

May be you have the original Springsharp file - so i can import it and use it as source.

8

Monday, June 27th 2016, 5:33pm

Nope :( I have reduced the number and the type and it still doesn't work :( Also in my eyes some strong AA armament is necessary to fight against the threat of enemy airforces, so i won't reduce the numbers.

May be you have the original Springsharp file - so i can import it and use it as source.


I see several points of difference between the two versions of the sim.

In the original sim, the hull and structure, etc, weighs in at 11,871 tons; in the revised sim only 11,748 tons.

The original sim has only four batteries of guns - main, secondary, tertiary, and quaternary. The revised sim adds a fifth battery of light antiaircraft guns, which raises the weight of armament by 10 tons

The revised sim also increases the armor protection of the antiaircraft armament, which raises the weight of the armor protection by 75 tons.

These additions, combined with the lessening of the weight of the structure (the cause of which I do not know) is likely causing the fault condition on overall strength.

9

Monday, June 27th 2016, 6:32pm

I went and tried to resim the Shah Jahan myself using rocky's sim and noticed a few things:

1) India uses imperial and tries to make it look metric.

2) Not sure how the hull was done but with a BC of 0.55 I could not get exactly to 30,208 tons. With metric I was 1 ton short and with imperial I was 1 ton over.

3) I found the midbreak at 0% interesting since that would put it right at the bow...

Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (0 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.60 ft / 6.28 m

4) As far as I know I use all the exact numbers (except for some extremely minor dimensional guessing) in the sim but it just won't work for me and I get a hull strength of 0.99. Every weight matches, except that of the Hull, fittings & equipment...


My resim (without armor breakdown):
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,485 tons, 4.9 %
Armour: 9,876 tons, 32.7 %
Machinery: 3,047 tons, 10.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,846 tons, 39.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,830 tons, 12.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 125 tons, 0.4 %


Original sim (without armor breakdown):
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,485 tons, 4.9 %
Armour: 9,876 tons, 32.7 %
Machinery: 3,047 tons, 10.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,871 tons, 39.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,830 tons, 12.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 125 tons, 0.4 %



... so I decided to add up the numbers because the end result should be the normal displacement. For my resim I ended up with 30,209 tons which is no doubt due to SS rounding up/down the various numbers. However the original sim ends up with 30,234 tons as normal displacement when the tonnages are added up and a 26 ton difference cannot be caused by SS rounding up/down the various numbers. That's just too big.



Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1929

Displacement:
26,378 t light; 27,997 t standard; 30,208 t normal; 31,977 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
691.25 ft / 679.13 ft x 99.74 ft x 28.38 ft (normal load)
210.69 m / 207.00 m x 30.40 m x 8.65 m

Armament:
8 - 13.78" / 350 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1,308.33lbs / 593.45kg shells, 1929 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (4x2 guns), 103.21lbs / 46.82kg shells, 1929 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.22lbs / 15.98kg shells, 1929 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
16 - 1.38" / 35.1 mm guns (8x2 guns), 1.31lbs / 0.60kg shells, 1929 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1929 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 11,879 lbs / 5,388 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 15.0" / 380 mm 398.00 ft / 121.31 m 11.80 ft / 3.60 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 90 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.00" / 25 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 26.00 ft / 7.92 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.8" / 401 mm 11.8" / 300 mm 13.8" / 350 mm
2nd: 3.15" / 80 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 3.15" / 80 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
4th: 0.78" / 20 mm - -

- Armour deck: 4.52" / 115 mm, Conning tower: 14.17" / 360 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 99,195 shp / 74,000 Kw = 27.94 kts
Range 14,200nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,980 tons

Complement:
1,145 - 1,489

Cost:
£10.388 million / $41.552 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,485 tons, 4.9 %
Armour: 9,876 tons, 32.7 %
- Belts: 3,112 tons, 10.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 385 tons, 1.3 %
- Armament: 2,130 tons, 7.1 %
- Armour Deck: 3,953 tons, 13.1 %
- Conning Tower: 296 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 3,047 tons, 10.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,846 tons, 39.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,830 tons, 12.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 125 tons, 0.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
41,691 lbs / 18,911 Kg = 31.9 x 13.8 " / 350 mm shells or 6.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 6.0 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 17.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.51
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.12

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.81 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.06 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (0 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.60 ft / 6.28 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 157.3 %
Waterplane Area: 47,272 Square feet or 4,392 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 183 lbs/sq ft or 892 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.42
- Overall: 0.99
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

10

Monday, June 27th 2016, 6:51pm

Sorry something is amiss. I can't see why there'd be such a problem. Wouldn't surprise me if some of the dimensions had third or fourth decimal places, though, including the BC; the design was, after all, built in the treaty era.

I'll poke around and see if I can find the original sim, but it's been eleven years and three or four computers, so...

11

Monday, June 27th 2016, 7:25pm

If you can't get the sim to match exactly, I'd recommend getting as close as you can and just go forward with the rebuild.

You might try taking Walter's sim from above and drop a few main battery rounds (perhaps try going down to 145 rpg) in order to get the hull strength up to 1.00. So long as the hull strength meets requirements and the light displacement remains the same, some very minor changes to the sim can be tolerated in order to reproduce an original design for rebuilding purposes. So long as the community is aware of the details of what things have changed and there are no major objections, then I don't see a problem. "It's close enough for government work", as the saying goes.

I'll need to try simming it myself before I can provide any further suggestions.

12

Monday, June 27th 2016, 7:50pm

Quoted

Sorry something is amiss. I can't see why there'd be such a problem. Wouldn't surprise me if some of the dimensions had third or fourth decimal places, though, including the BC; the design was, after all, built in the treaty era.

Most likely it is one of the dimensions. Whenever you start a new sim, 0.55 is your starting BC and considering the normal displacement it seems extremely unlikely that the BC is either 0.54999 or 0.55001 you would only do that to get something like 30,200 tons or 28,000 tons etc. Regardless that 1 ton difference is not going to be much of an issue with the design. The fact that the "Distribution of weights at normal displacement" of the original is that of a 30,234 ton vessel and not of the 30,208 ton vessel that was simmed is to me the bigger mystery. Still, quickly increasing the normal displacement to 30,234 tons did not seem to get the hull strength back up to 1 though. I changed the BC, though I probably should have tried draught as that gives you the most hull strength gain per ton of all the dimensions + BC. Unfortunately I already closed springsharp and it is quite an annoying vessel to resim.

Quoted

You might try taking Walter's sim from above and drop a few main battery rounds (perhaps try going down to 145 rpg) in order to get the hull strength up to 1.00. So long as the hull strength meets requirements and the light displacement remains the same, some very minor changes to the sim can be tolerated in order to reproduce an original design for rebuilding purposes.

You are probably forgetting that changing the rounds per gun will automatically increase the light displacement so you will need to mess around quite a bit to get it sorted. IIRC with the sim, I had no problems with it until I realized that the stability did not match. Looking at the original sim more closely, I noticed that the Forecastle was 25% and not 20%, but it was that 5% change that caused my resim to drop below 1.

13

Monday, June 27th 2016, 8:15pm

The sim with the forecastle at 20% which seems to work. The SShip file used to load into SS is attached (it's a bit annoying that I could not attach the file normally since the board only accepts bmp, gif, jpeg, jpg, pdf, png, txt and zip files)

Shah Jahan, India Battleship laid down 1929

Displacement:
26,378 t light; 27,997 t standard; 30,208 t normal; 31,977 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
691.25 ft / 679.13 ft x 99.74 ft x 28.38 ft (normal load)
210.69 m / 207.00 m x 30.40 m x 8.65 m

Armament:
8 - 13.78" / 350 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1,308.33lbs / 593.45kg shells, 1929 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (4x2 guns), 103.21lbs / 46.82kg shells, 1929 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.22lbs / 15.98kg shells, 1929 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
16 - 1.38" / 35.1 mm guns (8x2 guns), 1.31lbs / 0.60kg shells, 1929 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1929 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 11,879 lbs / 5,388 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 15.0" / 380 mm 397.98 ft / 121.30 m 11.79 ft / 3.59 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 90 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.00" / 25 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 25.98 ft / 7.92 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.8" / 401 mm 11.8" / 300 mm 13.8" / 350 mm
2nd: 3.15" / 80 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 3.15" / 80 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
4th: 0.78" / 20 mm - -

- Armour deck: 4.52" / 115 mm, Conning tower: 14.17" / 360 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 99,195 shp / 74,000 Kw = 27.94 kts
Range 14,200nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,980 tons

Complement:
1,145 - 1,489

Cost:
£10.388 million / $41.552 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,485 tons, 4.9 %
Armour: 9,876 tons, 32.7 %
- Belts: 3,112 tons, 10.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 385 tons, 1.3 %
- Armament: 2,130 tons, 7.1 %
- Armour Deck: 3,953 tons, 13.1 %
- Conning Tower: 296 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 3,047 tons, 10.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,846 tons, 39.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,830 tons, 12.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 125 tons, 0.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
41,577 lbs / 18,859 Kg = 31.8 x 13.8 " / 350 mm shells or 6.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 6.0 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 17.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.52
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.12

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.81 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.06 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (0 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.48 ft / 6.24 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 157.3 %
Waterplane Area: 47,272 Square feet or 4,392 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 183 lbs/sq ft or 893 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.41
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Rooijen10 has attached the following file:
  • SJ.zip (422 Byte - 64 times downloaded - latest: Sep 12th 2018, 8:47pm)

14

Monday, June 27th 2016, 8:40pm

You are probably forgetting that changing the rounds per gun will automatically increase the light displacement so you will need to mess around quite a bit to get it sorted.

I didn't forget - I just took it as understood that some fiddling one way or the other would still need to be done in order to make things right. As I said, the only non-negotiable points in my book are light displacement and hull strength.

If the only difference with that sim is the % of the forecastle length, I'd say go with it.

15

Monday, June 27th 2016, 9:30pm

Quoted

If the only difference with that sim is the % of the forecastle length, I'd say go with it.

That is the only difference, but as it is it is a rather limited design when it comes to refit options.

I noticed with my resim that when I change the 105mm guns to anything other than AA guns or machineguns, hull strength drops to 0.99. Another thing I noticed was that the design is very close to the 0.99-1.00 edge meaning that changing the 35mm guns to 40mm immediately dropped the hull strength to 0.99 though it was solved by going to 14 guns. Adding the 25mm means dropping to 12x 40mm guns and 12x 25mm guns to keep hull strength up a 1.00. Going for the 20x2 40mm and 30x2 25mm layout requires some cutting somewhere and that is probably miscellaneous weights (from 125 to 80 tons). If parador also want to go for 105mm DP guns with hoists, then he will end up with 26 tons of miscellaneous weights. Regardless, there is not going to be enough miscellaneous weights for stuff like radars, fire-control, emergency generators, extra damage control gear, flagship facilities, air condition system, aircrafts, catapults + cranes, etc.

That is actually the one issue I have with the rules. In reality if you are going to add 20x2 40mm and 30x2 25mm, change the 105mm from AA to DP and give them hoists, the additional mass of all that stuff will mean that the ship would sit slightly lower in the water (maybe 1 inch or so) and thus be slightly heavier. The opposite is true as well. If for example all the 105mm guns were removed and nothing else is done, mass is lost and that will mean that the ship would sit slightly higher in the water and thus be slightly lighter.

16

Monday, June 27th 2016, 10:06pm

Quoted

If the only difference with that sim is the % of the forecastle length, I'd say go with it.

That is the only difference, but as it is it is a rather limited design when it comes to refit options.

Wouldn't be the first ship to have that problem. I'm scrapping some relatively "modern" Russian cruisers because I can't economically refit them in any meaningful way...

17

Monday, June 27th 2016, 10:17pm

That's why I disposed of her. Best I could do was get her in line with the slightly larger Akbars - which had been 50% rebuilt in the mid-thirties.

18

Tuesday, June 28th 2016, 11:11am

My next refit suggestion

Using Roo's File (thanks again for it) and playing a little bit with the file ...

=> removing catapult and aircraft (reducing Misc. Weight to 100 tons)
=> changing calibre of the light AAs to 40 mm & 20 mm and adding some mounts (switching to hoist mount instead of normal deck mount)
=> exchanging the heavy AA (build 1929) to modern AA (build 1947)
=> life extension refit

Adjustment to our rules (keep light displacement as it is and achieving hull strength 1.00):
reducing the Main-Gun RPGs from 150 to 149.


Hope it's okay for everybody.

Quoted


Displacement:
26.378 t light; 27.997 t standard; 30.208 t normal; 31.977 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
691,25 ft / 679,13 ft x 99,74 ft x 28,38 ft (normal load)
210,69 m / 207,00 m x 30,40 m x 8,65 m

Armament:
8 - 13,78" / 350 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1.308,33lbs / 593,45kg shells, 1929 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 5,91" / 150 mm guns (4x2 guns), 103,21lbs / 46,82kg shells, 1929 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35,22lbs / 15,98kg shells, 1947 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
32 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns (16x2 guns), 1,95lbs / 0,89kg shells, 1947 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
40 - 0,79" / 20,0 mm guns (20x2 guns), 0,24lbs / 0,11kg shells, 1947 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 11.928 lbs / 5.411 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 149

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 15,0" / 380 mm 397,98 ft / 121,30 m 11,79 ft / 3,59 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 90% of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,00" / 25 mm 400,00 ft / 121,92 m 25,98 ft / 7,92 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15,8" / 401 mm 11,8" / 300 mm 13,8" / 350 mm
2nd: 3,15" / 80 mm 1,38" / 35 mm 3,15" / 80 mm
3rd: 1,00" / 25 mm - -
4th: 0,78" / 20 mm - -
5th: 0,27" / 7 mm - -

- Armour deck: 4,52" / 115 mm, Conning tower: 14,17" / 360 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 99.195 shp / 74.000 Kw = 27,94 kts
Range 14.200nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3.980 tons

Complement:
1.145 - 1.489

Cost:
£10,409 million / $41,635 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.491 tons, 4,9%
Armour: 9.881 tons, 32,7%
- Belts: 3.112 tons, 10,3%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 385 tons, 1,3%
- Armament: 2.135 tons, 7,1%
- Armour Deck: 3.953 tons, 13,1%
- Conning Tower: 296 tons, 1,0%
Machinery: 3.047 tons, 10,1%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11.860 tons, 39,3%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.830 tons, 12,7%
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0,3%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
41.677 lbs / 18.905 Kg = 31,9 x 13,8 " / 350 mm shells or 6,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,11
Metacentric height 6,0 ft / 1,8 m
Roll period: 17,0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 69 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,51
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,11

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,550
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,81 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,06 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26,00 ft / 7,92 m
- Forecastle (20%): 20,00 ft / 6,10 m
- Mid (0%): 20,00 ft / 6,10 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 20,00 ft / 6,10 m
- Stern: 20,00 ft / 6,10 m
- Average freeboard: 20,48 ft / 6,24 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89,9%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 157,3%
Waterplane Area: 47.272 Square feet or 4.392 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 183 lbs/sq ft or 894 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,96
- Longitudinal: 1,41
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

19

Tuesday, June 28th 2016, 10:19pm

This is all very enlightening for me as at some point my Osmanieh class will need refits......