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21

Friday, March 17th 2006, 8:08pm

Quoted

Originally posted by The Rock Doctor The freeboard seems unusually high, and I'm puzzled that the stern is higher than the quarterdeck.


I agree, that has to be the highest freeboard I've even seen! I also agree on the speed, I'd personally drop 2 knots in exchange for more armor, better seakeeping and a lower freeboard.

Personally I'd build some more France class.

22

Friday, March 17th 2006, 9:02pm

I also was planning 34kt ships for Australia until I figured I was sacrificing too much. Now Im settling for 32kts with destroyers being a knot faster.

23

Friday, March 17th 2006, 9:46pm

Quoted

I also agree on the speed, I'd personally drop 2 knots in exchange for more armor, better seakeeping and a lower freeboard.

Better seakeeping?! You mean to tell me Wes that you are not satisfied with a good seaboat rating?!
O_O
I agree on the armor, especially the torpedo bulkhead.

Quoted

I also was planning 34kt ships for Australia until I figured I was sacrificing too much.

Depends on the size of the ship. Since I was glancing a bit at the Alaska when I designed the Dairen class, I thought it was an acceptable design with its 34 knot speed. But for something the size of Paris, the quest for such speed just hurts the other aspects of the ship too much.

24

Friday, March 17th 2006, 10:09pm

Playmates for the Oyama's?

I think I'll just build those HACs and skip the BCs, invest in a faster BB later in the decade.

25

Saturday, March 18th 2006, 1:03am

Docks, armor, etc

Presently, France and Russia have Class 3 docks at Saigon, Cam Ranh Bay, Noumea New Caledonia, and Vladivostok. And at the rate they're both building infrastructure, Class 4s will be completed by the time Paris and Lyon enter service.

Concerning her armor, it seems adequate to deal with the 320mm, 343mm, 356mm, and 360mm guns now steaming in the Pacific. For the Atlantic or the Med its probably not enough given the number of 381mm guns populating those theaters. The torpedo belt is a weak spot and I'll see what I can do to increase it.

As far as fitting it all in on a 27m beam, the bulges provide depth for the TDS, so the beam actually usable for barbettes, magazines, and engines is about the same as a ship with a 33 meter beam and a 4-meter deep TDS. However, I don't know if 3 meter bulges are excessive, since I've not found a source that treats that.

The 20,000 ton cruiser-killer option has drawbacks for a country with only 6 capital ships and a global empire, especially in a theater where there are modern battlecruisers with 305mm and 320mm guns about. My present plan is to rebuild 2 Provence class in the mid-1930s, increasing their speed to 23-24 knots, so the French battle line would look like this:

2x Paris Class 40,000 tons standard, 6x381mm + 6x240mm, 34 knots - Pacific

2x France class 39,000 tons standard, 12x381mm, 26 knots - Med

2x Provence class 23,000 tons standard 10x340mm, 24 knots - Med

This also works if I build Richelieus instead of the Paris class, and that is very much an option.

26

Saturday, March 18th 2006, 11:07am

I'd shy away from the heavy secondaries. ROF at long range is moot and if you want to mission kill what about just firing HE?

I can see the merits of a 34knot ship. Possibly Pacific use is just a smoke screen?

Cheers,

27

Saturday, March 18th 2006, 11:13am

Quoted

Presently, France and Russia have Class 3 docks at Saigon, Cam Ranh Bay, Noumea New Caledonia, and Vladivostok. And at the rate they're both building infrastructure, Class 4s will be completed by the time Paris and Lyon enter service.

Which is a good thing for you. Would seem to be a shame to have ships there that cannot be repaired.

Quoted

Concerning her armor, it seems adequate to deal with the 320mm, 343mm, 356mm, and 360mm guns now steaming in the Pacific.

What about the lone pair of Japanese 38 cm guns sailing the pacific?
:-)

28

Saturday, March 18th 2006, 1:36pm

Quoted

I'd shy away from the heavy secondaries. ROF at long range is moot and if you want to mission kill what about just firing HE?


What the heavy secondaries give me is the ability to engage 2 cruisers/battlecruisers, to mission kill one while sinking the other. Given that the Paris class will be outnumbered before help arrives from the Atlantic and the Med, that seemed to be a useful capability to me.

And that's really the thing driving the Paris design over a Richelieu, because I agree a Richelieu would be a very powerful ship in the Pacific, but the inability to split fires seems a drawback, because she'll have to fight outnumbered.

And no smokescreen, she's for the Pacific, where the lone pair of Japanese 38cm won't be within range for long at all ;-)

29

Saturday, March 18th 2006, 2:01pm

Quoted

And no smokescreen, she's for the Pacific, where the lone pair of Japanese 38cm won't be within range for long at all ;-)

Yes and they should be ashamed if they actually fail to do just that as they have an 18 knot advantage over the Hideyoshi.
Looking at the Hideyoshi now, I forgot how much armor it had.

30

Saturday, March 18th 2006, 9:29pm

Since I'm revealing secrets...

might as well show you what the Paris class is competing against:

Richelieu class, French Battleship laid down 1931

Displacement:
38,220 t light; 40,658 t standard; 46,500 t normal; 51,173 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
829.15 ft / 807.09 ft x 98.43 ft (Bulges 111.55 ft) x 31.17 ft (normal load)
252.73 m / 246.00 m x 30.00 m (Bulges 34.00 m) x 9.50 m

Armament:
8 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (2x4 guns), 2,034.87lbs / 923.00kg shells, 1931 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
6 - 5.98" / 152 mm guns (2x3 guns), 110.23lbs / 50.00kg shells, 1931 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all aft, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (6x2 guns), 61.73lbs / 28.00kg shells, 1931 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
48 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (12x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 17,775 lbs / 8,063 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.8" / 350 mm 432.41 ft / 131.80 m 12.47 ft / 3.80 m
Ends: 1.18" / 30 mm 374.67 ft / 114.20 m 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Main Belt covers 82 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1.57" / 40 mm 432.41 ft / 131.80 m 27.89 ft / 8.50 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.7" / 400 mm 7.87" / 200 mm 11.8" / 300 mm
2nd: 3.15" / 80 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -

- Armour deck: 5.51" / 140 mm, Conning tower: 15.75" / 400 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 159,019 shp / 118,628 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 12,900nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 10,515 tons

Complement:
1,583 - 2,058

Cost:
£15.555 million / $62.221 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,859 tons, 4.0 %
Armour: 13,089 tons, 28.1 %
- Belts: 3,388 tons, 7.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 703 tons, 1.5 %
- Armament: 2,502 tons, 5.4 %
- Armour Deck: 6,057 tons, 13.0 %
- Conning Tower: 439 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 4,755 tons, 10.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 18,417 tons, 39.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 8,280 tons, 17.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
70,069 lbs / 31,783 Kg = 41.5 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 10.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 6.2 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 18.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.62
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.580
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.24 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 32.99 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 38.22 ft / 11.65 m
- Forecastle (30 %): 28.38 ft / 8.65 m
- Mid (50 %): 28.38 ft / 8.65 m (21.00 ft / 6.40 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Stern: 24.28 ft / 7.40 m
- Average freeboard: 26.12 ft / 7.96 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 169.3 %
Waterplane Area: 59,404 Square feet or 5,519 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 124 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 210 lbs/sq ft or 1,025 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.48
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

80mm decapping plate. 270mm belt internal is inclined at 15 degrees.

31

Sunday, March 19th 2006, 3:52am

Hmm, only two secondary turrets instead of three?

32

Sunday, March 19th 2006, 11:45am

Clemenceau arrangement instead but without the wings.

30m beam and quadruple turrets? Why were the Richelieu's bulged to 35-36m historically? Because their original 32-33m beam was insufficient.

33

Monday, March 20th 2006, 1:19pm

Hm

Color me confused then. The data I've seen gives 'em a normal displacement of ~43,000 tons with a length of 247m and a draft of 9.6m. If they were bulged to 36m, that gives a BC of around 0.5. Was it really that low?

34

Monday, March 20th 2006, 2:40pm

I'll dig out some proper stats but i'm thinking that its 43.000tons standard and not normal.

48500 full load

- 6000 tons of fuel = 42500tons standard (about)

Hull dimensions being 242wl x 33m x 9.6-10m

overall length is 247m.

35

Monday, March 20th 2006, 11:48pm

Okay...

Obviously, she isn't fitting through the Panama Canal...

Richelieu, French Battleship laid down 1931

Displacement:
37,119 t light; 39,540 t standard; 45,466 t normal; 50,206 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
814.80 ft / 793.96 ft x 104.99 ft (Bulges 114.83 ft) x 31.17 ft (normal load)
248.35 m / 242.00 m x 32.00 m (Bulges 35.00 m) x 9.50 m

Armament:
8 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (2x4 guns), 2,039.28lbs / 925.00kg shells, 1931 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
6 - 5.98" / 152 mm guns (2x3 guns), 110.23lbs / 50.00kg shells, 1931 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all aft, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (6x2 guns), 61.73lbs / 28.00kg shells, 1931 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
48 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (12x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 17,810 lbs / 8,078 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.8" / 350 mm 399.77 ft / 121.85 m 12.47 ft / 3.80 m
Ends: 1.18" / 30 mm 394.19 ft / 120.15 m 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Main Belt covers 77 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1.57" / 40 mm 399.77 ft / 121.85 m 27.89 ft / 8.50 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.7" / 400 mm 7.87" / 200 mm 11.8" / 300 mm
2nd: 3.15" / 80 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -

- Armour deck: 5.51" / 140 mm, Conning tower: 15.75" / 400 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 137,970 shp / 102,926 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 13,350nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 10,667 tons

Complement:
1,556 - 2,023

Cost:
£15.002 million / $60.010 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,859 tons, 4.1 %
Armour: 12,947 tons, 28.5 %
- Belts: 3,220 tons, 7.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 650 tons, 1.4 %
- Armament: 2,410 tons, 5.3 %
- Armour Deck: 6,235 tons, 13.7 %
- Conning Tower: 432 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 4,126 tons, 9.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 18,088 tons, 39.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 8,347 tons, 18.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
70,936 lbs / 32,176 Kg = 42.0 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 11.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 7.1 ft / 2.2 m
Roll period: 18.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.560
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.91 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 32.92 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 36.09 ft / 11.00 m
- Forecastle (35 %): 26.90 ft / 8.20 m
- Mid (50 %): 26.90 ft / 8.20 m (19.03 ft / 5.80 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.03 ft / 5.80 m
- Stern: 21.65 ft / 6.60 m
- Average freeboard: 24.45 ft / 7.45 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 77.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 160.1 %
Waterplane Area: 61,148 Square feet or 5,681 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 126 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 210 lbs/sq ft or 1,024 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.45
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

70mm decapping plate. 280mm internal belt is inclined at 15 degrees.

36

Tuesday, March 21st 2006, 5:43pm

Quoted

Obviously, she isn't fitting through the Panama Canal...

The question is: Do you need to get through the Panama Canal?
And I believe that the canal through Mexico will be wider, so once that is finished, you could take them through there rather than the Panama Canal.