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1

Saturday, November 18th 2006, 2:30am

New French ship for 1933

Le Fantastique class is intended to counter destroyers with increasingly heavy gun armament. However, they are well-armed with torpedos, in quad launchers with no reloads. The 138mm twin mount is limited to 45 degrees elevation, and has a semiautomatic breech block and a powered rammer.

There will be a class of 4 in 1933.

Le Fantasque
Le Malin
L'Indomptable
Le Triomphant

Le Fantastique, French Contre-Torpillieurs laid down 1933

Displacement:
2,867 t light; 2,999 t standard; 3,449 t normal; 3,809 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
468.42 ft / 457.68 ft x 40.68 ft x 17.06 ft (normal load)
142.78 m / 139.50 m x 12.40 m x 5.20 m

Armament:
6 - 5.43" / 138 mm guns (3x2 guns), 89.51lbs / 40.60kg shells, 1933 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (1x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1933 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in a deck mount with hoist
on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1933 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
6 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1933 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 553 lbs / 251 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
12 - 21.7" / 550 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 457.68 ft / 139.50 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.98" / 25 mm -
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -

- Conning tower: 2.36" / 60 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 62,419 shp / 46,565 Kw = 36.00 kts
Range 4,700nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 810 tons

Complement:
224 - 292

Cost:
£1.841 million / $7.365 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 62 tons, 1.8 %
Armour: 180 tons, 5.2 %
- Belts: 137 tons, 4.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 32 tons, 0.9 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 12 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 1,692 tons, 49.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 898 tons, 26.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 581 tons, 16.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 35 tons, 1.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
796 lbs / 361 Kg = 9.9 x 5.4 " / 138 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.22
Metacentric height 1.9 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 12.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.49
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.380
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.25 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.58 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Mid (49 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m (9.84 ft / 3.00 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Stern: 10.83 ft / 3.30 m
- Average freeboard: 15.72 ft / 4.79 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 174.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 72.8 %
Waterplane Area: 11,779 Square feet or 1,094 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 79 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 41 lbs/sq ft or 201 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.18
- Overall: 0.54
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform


2

Saturday, November 18th 2006, 3:26am

Interesting design, what with the light belt armor and the speed. Germany has a similar (in size and speed, anyway) design that will also be coming out in 1933, but the two designs are rather different in detail. No heavier AA than a 40mm, though?

3

Saturday, November 18th 2006, 2:25pm

Here's what I get if I drop the belt.

Might be worth it.

Le Fantastique, French Contre-Torpillieurs laid down 1933

Displacement:
2,820 t light; 2,971 t standard; 3,449 t normal; 3,831 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
468.42 ft / 457.68 ft x 40.68 ft x 17.06 ft (normal load)
142.78 m / 139.50 m x 12.40 m x 5.20 m

Armament:
8 - 5.43" / 138 mm guns (4x2 guns), 89.51lbs / 40.60kg shells, 1933 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (1x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1933 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in a deck mount with hoist
on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1933 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
6 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1933 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 732 lbs / 332 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
12 - 21.7" / 550 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 1.57" / 40 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -

- Conning tower: 2.36" / 60 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 62,419 shp / 46,565 Kw = 36.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 859 tons

Complement:
224 - 292

Cost:
£1.910 million / $7.641 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 82 tons, 2.4 %
Armour: 55 tons, 1.6 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 44 tons, 1.3 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 12 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 1,688 tons, 48.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 959 tons, 27.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 629 tons, 18.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 35 tons, 1.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
760 lbs / 345 Kg = 9.5 x 5.4 " / 138 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
Metacentric height 1.7 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 13.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.73
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.380
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.25 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.58 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 20.01 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (49 %): 20.01 ft / 6.10 m (10.17 ft / 3.10 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 10.17 ft / 3.10 m
- Stern: 10.83 ft / 3.30 m
- Average freeboard: 15.99 ft / 4.88 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 178.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 74.6 %
Waterplane Area: 11,779 Square feet or 1,094 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 79 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 44 lbs/sq ft or 212 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.25
- Overall: 0.55
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

4

Saturday, November 18th 2006, 2:51pm

Ah ha, Mogador lives! :) Definitely some similarities between this ship and Maas.

How are the torpedo banks laid out? 1 quad centerline and 1 quad on either beam? Or something else?

I'd probably go with this version, the 25mm belt seems like it's probably too thin to do much good.

Also, you probably don't want a 138mm quick-firing gun, that would have a 74.22 kg round, almost certainly too much to handle

5

Saturday, November 18th 2006, 3:47pm

How about...

a hoist that brings that big round right up to the breech? Since there's no armor belt, I want to have all that propellant safely behind brass.

And yes, Mogador lives, but not yet.

There'll be another batch soon.

6

Saturday, November 18th 2006, 4:16pm

I'd be a bit dubious about that at this point in time, that's almost more of a turret thing than a mount & hoist. And I doubt you want the weight of a turret on this ship.

7

Saturday, November 18th 2006, 5:51pm

3 hoists. Two for cartridges and 1 for shells. And have lots of space for ready rounds inside the turret.

36knts is good. I managed to get up to 38.5knts with a similar vessel but didn't think it was worth it. Now if I could actually sim Capitani Romani's 41knts speed accurately with SS....

8

Tuesday, November 21st 2006, 12:52pm

Aventurieur class rebuild

the 15 Aventurieur class torpillieurs not reconstructed in 1927 will be rebuilt to the following standard in 1933, as per the Naval Staff announcement today.

Aventurieur class, French Destrioyer rebuild laid down 1910 (Engine 1933)

Displacement:
908 t light; 945 t standard; 1,033 t normal; 1,103 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
275.73 ft / 262.47 ft x 26.25 ft x 13.12 ft (normal load)
84.04 m / 80.00 m x 8.00 m x 4.00 m

Armament:
3 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 61.73lbs / 28.00kg shells, 1910 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (1x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1910 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in a deck mount with hoist
on side aft, all raised guns
4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1910 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 193 lbs / 88 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
4 - 21.7" / 550 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -

- Conning tower: 0.98" / 25 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 29,492 shp / 22,001 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 2,550nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 158 tons

Complement:
90 - 118

Cost:
£0.123 million / $0.491 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 21 tons, 2.0 %
Armour: 8 tons, 0.8 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 6 tons, 0.6 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 525 tons, 50.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 324 tons, 31.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 125 tons, 12.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 30 tons, 2.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
266 lbs / 120 Kg = 5.0 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
Metacentric height 1.0 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 11.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.43
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak, low quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.400
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16.20 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 71 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m (9.84 ft / 3.00 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 9.51 ft / 2.90 m (9.84 ft / 3.00 m before break)
- Stern: 9.51 ft / 2.90 m
- Average freeboard: 13.60 ft / 4.15 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 182.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 66.4 %
Waterplane Area: 4,241 Square feet or 394 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 54 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 30 lbs/sq ft or 148 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 4.46
- Overall: 0.62
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped


Her original stats are below:


French Aventurieur class destroyers, laid down 1911
Length, 80.0 m x Beam, 8.0 m x Depth, 4.0 m
1032 tonnes normal displacement (968 tonnes standard)
Main battery: 4 x 10.0-cm
Secondary battery: 4 x 6.5-cm
QF battery: 2 x 4.5-cm
Light battery: 6 x 1.3-cm
Weight of broadside: 73 kg
4 TT, 45.0 cm
80 tons depth charges/mines
Hull unarmored
Maximum speed for 20568 shaft kw = 31.50 knots
Approximate cruising radius, 3000 nm / 10 knots
Typical complement: 91-118

Estimated cost, $511,000 (£128,000)
Remarks:
Caution: Hull structure is subject to strain in open-sea
conditions.
Oil firing.
Magazines and engineering spaces are cramped, with poor
watertight subdivision.
Cramped ship; poor crew accommodation, limited working space.

Distribution of weights:
Percent
normal
displacement:
Armament ......................... 20 tonnes = 2 pct
Machinery ........................ 558 tonnes = 54 pct
Hull and fittings; equipment ..... 275 tonnes = 27 pct
Fuel, ammunition, stores ......... 99 tonnes = 10 pct
Miscellaneous weights ............ 80 tonnes = 8 pct
-----
1032 tonnes = 100 pct
Estimated metacentric height, 0.3 m
Displacement summary:
Light ship: 934 tonnes
Standard displacement: 968 tonnes
Normal service: 1032 tonnes
Full load: 1080 tonnes
Loading submergence 349 tonnes/metre
+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Estimated overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Relative margin of stability: 1.15
Shellfire needed to sink: 90 kg = 6.5 x 10.0-cm shells
(Approximates weight of penetrating
shell hits needed to sink ship,
not counting critical hits)
Torpedoes needed to sink: 0.2
(Approximates number of 'typical'
torpedo hits needed to sink ship)
Relative steadiness as gun platform, 55 percent
(50 percent is 'average')
Relative rocking effect from firing to beam, 0.36
Relative quality as a seaboat: 1.10
+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hull form characteristics:
Block coefficient: 0.40
Sharpness coefficient: 0.30
Hull speed coefficient 'M' = 7.93
'Natural speed' for length = 16.2 knots
Power going to wave formation
at top speed: 71 percent

Estimated hull characteristics and strength:
Relative underwater volume absorbed by
magazines and engineering spaces: 198 percent
Relative accommodation and working space: 78 percent

Displacement factor: 42 percent
(Displacement relative to loading factors)

Relative cross-sectional hull strength: 0.50
(Structure weight per square
metre of hull surface: 154 kg)
Relative longitudinal hull strength: 2.27
(for 4.25 m average freeboard;
freeboard adjustment +1.32 m)
Relative composite hull strength: 0.58
+++++++++++++++++++++++++

[Machine-readable parameters: Spring Style v. 1.2.1]
262.40 x 26.24 x 13.12; 13.94 -- Dimensions
0.40 -- Block coefficient
1911 -- Year laid down
31.50 / 3000 / 10.00; Oil-fired turbine or equivalent -- Speed / radius / cruise
80 tons -- Miscellaneous weights
++++++++++
4 x 3.94; 0 -- Main battery; turrets
Central positioning of guns
:
4 x 2.56; 0 -- Secondary battery; turrets
:
2 x 1.77 -- Tertiary (QF/AA) battery
:
6 x 0.51 -- Fourth (light) battery
4 / 0 / 17.72 -- TT / submerged / size
++++++++++
0.00 -- No belt armor
0.00 / 0.00 -- Deck / CT
0.00 -- No battery armor

9

Tuesday, November 21st 2006, 6:55pm

Its probably not worth it considering the state of the hull. They're old and will have seen wartime service. They're probably falling apart by the 30s.

10

Tuesday, November 21st 2006, 7:31pm

On the contrary

Accompanying a slow battleship on occasonal patrols along colonial coasts is just the mission for a refurbished old unit like this.

The mission certainly isn't worth a new-built front-line unit.