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1

Tuesday, June 23rd 2009, 9:05pm

Chinese Scout Cruiser

This draft was presented to the chinese emperor.

Displacement:
9.148 t light; 9.474 t standard; 10.370 t normal; 11.087 t full load

Dimensions:
Length overall / water x beam x draught
630,70 ft / 620,08 ft x 55,12 ft x 19,52 ft (normal load)
192,24 m / 189,00 m x 16,80 m x 5,95 m

Armament:
8 - 5,91" / 150 mm guns (2x4 guns), 102,98lbs / 46,71kg shells, 1938 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns (4x2 guns), 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 1938 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1938 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1.113 lbs / 505 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 180
4 - 21,0" / 533 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2,36" / 60 mm 443,24 ft / 135,10 m 10,24 ft / 3,12 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 110% of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1,18" / 30 mm 1,18" / 30 mm 1,18" / 30 mm
2nd: 0,98" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1,18" / 30 mm, Conning tower: 1,57" / 40 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 107.058 shp / 79.865 Kw = 35,00 kts
Range 5.000nm at 18,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1.613 tons

Complement:
513 - 667

Cost:
£4,776 million / $19,105 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 139 tons, 1,3%
Armour: 1.078 tons, 10,4%
- Belts: 437 tons, 4,2%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Armament: 85 tons, 0,8%
- Armour Deck: 539 tons, 5,2%
- Conning Tower: 16 tons, 0,2%
Machinery: 2.931 tons, 28,3%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4.300 tons, 41,5%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.222 tons, 11,8%
Miscellaneous weights: 700 tons, 6,8%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
11.382 lbs / 5.163 Kg = 110,5 x 5,9 " / 150 mm shells or 1,3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,07
Metacentric height 2,3 ft / 0,7 m
Roll period: 15,2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 73 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,56
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,32

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0,544
Length to Beam Ratio: 11,25 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28,04 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 18,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2,62 ft / 0,80 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24,61 ft / 7,50 m
- Forecastle (20%): 22,97 ft / 7,00 m
- Mid (50%): 22,97 ft / 7,00 m
- Quarterdeck (20%): 22,97 ft / 7,00 m
- Stern: 22,97 ft / 7,00 m
- Average freeboard: 23,10 ft / 7,04 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 109,9%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 193,6%
Waterplane Area: 24.690 Square feet or 2.294 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 118%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 96 lbs/sq ft or 471 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,94
- Longitudinal: 2,07
- Overall: 1,02
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Misc. Weight:
6 Seaplanes (2 on the catapults)
2 catapults
flag facilities
radar[/I]




2

Tuesday, June 23rd 2009, 9:25pm

You know...

I like it.

I know some folks will raz you about the quad 6" guns, but for some reason I find the quad 6"ers rather neat. (I've put together two different 4x4 cruisers with 6" guns and gotten them both shot down... but someday I'll throw realism to the wind and just do it!) :P The all-forward layout is also kinda attractive to me.

My main comments would be to suggest that you lower steadiness down to 70% and raise stability a tad bit more. On the drawing your bridge also looks a tad too... tall? Big? But then you do state you have flag facilities, and the Japanese had notoriously battleship-like bridges on their CAs.

Seeing as it has the aviation facilities and an emphasis on scouting, I'm not terribly concerned about the comparatively light armor for a ship of this size. After a tad bit of thinking, I'd also like to see that aft 105mm mount raised a bit - the forward two mounts have good arcs, but the lower aft mount could probably benefit from a bit more altitude.

In summary, I like it.

You'll have to wait a few more quarters to see what I'm planning for the Chilean scouting forces.

3

Tuesday, June 23rd 2009, 9:29pm

I can predict what HOo would say if he weren't distractred:

Quoted

Length to Beam Ratio: 11,25 : 1


SNAP!!! Ie, she's too long for her beam.


I'm not sure why China would need such a ship, but I'd think a somewhat smaller vessel might be able to do the same job.

4

Tuesday, June 23rd 2009, 9:38pm

Oooh... that'd do it...

She's almost like a Tone-class cruiser, you know. Same length, but a lesser beam.

5

Tuesday, June 23rd 2009, 10:28pm

Displacement:
9.122 t light; 9.447 t standard; 10.336 t normal; 11.047 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
593,95 ft / 583,33 ft x 58,40 ft x 19,52 ft (normal load)
181,04 m / 177,80 m x 17,80 m x 5,95 m

Armament:
8 - 5,91" / 150 mm guns (2x4 guns), 102,98lbs / 46,71kg shells, 1938 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns (4x2 guns), 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 1938 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1938 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1.113 lbs / 505 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 180
4 - 21,0" / 533 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2,36" / 60 mm 443,24 ft / 135,10 m 10,24 ft / 3,12 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 117% of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1,18" / 30 mm 1,18" / 30 mm 1,18" / 30 mm
2nd: 0,98" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1,18" / 30 mm, Conning tower: 1,57" / 40 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 110.274 shp / 82.265 Kw = 35,00 kts
Range 5.000nm at 18,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1.601 tons

Complement:
512 - 666

Cost:
£4,841 million / $19,362 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 139 tons, 1,3%
Armour: 1.076 tons, 10,4%
- Belts: 437 tons, 4,2%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Armament: 85 tons, 0,8%
- Armour Deck: 538 tons, 5,2%
- Conning Tower: 16 tons, 0,2%
Machinery: 3.020 tons, 29,2%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4.137 tons, 40,0%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.214 tons, 11,8%
Miscellaneous weights: 750 tons, 7,3%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
10.629 lbs / 4.821 Kg = 103,2 x 5,9 " / 150 mm shells or 1,3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,07
Metacentric height 2,5 ft / 0,8 m
Roll period: 15,4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 68 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,45
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,14

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0,544
Length to Beam Ratio: 9,99 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27,43 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 18,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2,62 ft / 0,80 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24,61 ft / 7,50 m
- Forecastle (20%): 22,97 ft / 7,00 m
- Mid (50%): 22,97 ft / 7,00 m
- Quarterdeck (20%): 22,97 ft / 7,00 m
- Stern: 22,97 ft / 7,00 m
- Average freeboard: 23,10 ft / 7,04 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 113,5%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 193,3%
Waterplane Area: 24.609 Square feet or 2.286 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 98 lbs/sq ft or 479 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,92
- Longitudinal: 2,11
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Quoted

Length to Beam Ratio: 9,99 : 1

better ?

I was inspired from the Oyodo class

6

Tuesday, June 23rd 2009, 10:31pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
Oooh... that'd do it...

She's almost like a Tone-class cruiser, you know. Same length, but a lesser beam.


And Quad turrets need a beamy hull. Tone shipped twin 8s (probably could've taken on triple 6"), so you'd need something beamier than a Tone, I'd think.

Quads in general, I can find the link to the lengthy discussion for the Manitobas, but long story short, cramming 4 guns into one turret will give you dispersal problems, ROF problems, and " 4 eggs in one basket" problems.

Where's China getting Radar from?

7

Tuesday, June 23rd 2009, 10:40pm

....I'd assume either Japan or German technical assistance?

I echo the concerns about her beam with quad turrets.

8

Tuesday, June 23rd 2009, 10:41pm

Quoted

Originally posted by ShinRa_Inc
And Quad turrets need a beamy hull. Tone shipped twin 8s (probably could've taken on triple 6"), so you'd need something beamier than a Tone, I'd think.

Quads in general, I can find the link to the lengthy discussion for the Manitobas, but long story short, cramming 4 guns into one turret will give you dispersal problems, ROF problems, and " 4 eggs in one basket" problems.

Where's China getting Radar from?


a) Are you thinking the beam is now okay for the quads ?

b) It's for the future ;) at present the ship has no radar and with German and Japanese friends shouldn't be a problem to fit it on the ship

9

Wednesday, June 24th 2009, 3:05am

Here's the most extensive discussion on Quad turrets in the 6" range on this board (there's probably more over on WPDB)...
http://wesworld.jk-clan.de/thread.php?threadid=3207&sid=

10

Wednesday, June 24th 2009, 8:44am

May be i'm blind ?( but i couldn't find a NO-GO for a use of quads on a beam of ~ 18m ?( . PLEASE HELP ME !!! ;)

11

Wednesday, June 24th 2009, 9:18am

Well the easiest way is to simply look at historical ship designs. I'd hazard a guess that a quad turret would be as wide as a triple 8" turret so you'd likely need a beam above 60 feet to acomidate the turret with enough hull strength to spare.

The wesworld equivilent would be the Italian Pisa class with a 62.66 foot beam.

12

Wednesday, June 24th 2009, 9:54am

Displacement:
9.474 t light; 9.812 t standard; 10.990 t normal; 11.932 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
593,95 ft / 583,33 ft x 64,96 ft x 19,52 ft (normal load)
181,04 m / 177,80 m x 19,80 m x 5,95 m

Armament:
8 - 5,91" / 150 mm guns (2x4 guns), 102,98lbs / 46,71kg shells, 1938 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns (4x2 guns), 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 1938 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1938 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1.113 lbs / 505 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 180
4 - 21,0" / 533 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2,36" / 60 mm 435,70 ft / 132,80 m 10,24 ft / 3,12 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 115% of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1,18" / 30 mm 1,18" / 30 mm 1,18" / 30 mm
2nd: 0,98" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1,18" / 30 mm, Conning tower: 1,57" / 40 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 113.787 shp / 84.885 Kw = 35,00 kts
Range 6.500nm at 18,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2.120 tons

Complement:
536 - 697

Cost:
£4,986 million / $19,944 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 139 tons, 1,3%
Armour: 1.120 tons, 10,2%
- Belts: 433 tons, 3,9%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Armament: 85 tons, 0,8%
- Armour Deck: 585 tons, 5,3%
- Conning Tower: 17 tons, 0,2%
Machinery: 3.116 tons, 28,4%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4.349 tons, 39,6%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.516 tons, 13,8%
Miscellaneous weights: 750 tons, 6,8%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
12.642 lbs / 5.734 Kg = 122,8 x 5,9 " / 150 mm shells or 1,5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,14
Metacentric height 3,4 ft / 1,0 m
Roll period: 14,9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 61 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,29
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,02

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0,520
Length to Beam Ratio: 8,98 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27,73 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 18,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2,62 ft / 0,80 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24,61 ft / 7,50 m
- Forecastle (20%): 22,97 ft / 7,00 m
- Mid (50%): 22,97 ft / 7,00 m
- Quarterdeck (20%): 22,97 ft / 7,00 m
- Stern: 22,97 ft / 7,00 m
- Average freeboard: 23,10 ft / 7,04 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 109,6%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 202,5%
Waterplane Area: 26.755 Square feet or 2.486 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 119%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 103 lbs/sq ft or 503 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,93
- Longitudinal: 1,85
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

wider beam (to fit quads) and greater range

13

Wednesday, June 24th 2009, 10:48am

I'd say thats much better. IIRC Gavin stated that the Pisa's were rather weak structurally with their 62 foot beam, which IIRC was why they were converted to CVL's but you have 2 more feet in the beam and 2 less turrets.

The length to beam ratio should keep Stephen happy :P

14

Wednesday, June 24th 2009, 12:39pm

An interesting concept. It certainly has its uses for scouting. Perhaps one of the most scout-focused scouts we have in WW?

I'm baised against quads so I won't comment further on them.

15

Wednesday, June 24th 2009, 12:52pm

combining fighting power and aerial scouting

isn't the best idea I think. Getting the mass of turrets and armor going 35kts takes lots of power, while the unarmored hangar packed with flammables is a huge risk in surface combat.

I'd divide the two functions - a fast, unarmored seaplane carrier with DP and AA armament and a standard 8x8 6" gunned light cruiser.

16

Wednesday, June 24th 2009, 1:39pm

China has also a seaplane carrier in the pipe ;). So we have a pretty good Scouting force with the seaplane carrier and this scout cruiser.

17

Wednesday, June 24th 2009, 1:42pm

I think is different and that is enough reason for me to built it. Being assigned to this ship on the other hand is another story. Looks to me like a big kaboom on the making.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "perdedor99" (Jun 24th 2009, 1:42pm)


18

Wednesday, June 24th 2009, 2:00pm

The trick to using this vessel in combat will be that it REALLY wants to know it's going into combat before combat happens. If it's known that the force it's part of is closing with the enemy, all the seaplanes can be launched, and the flammables in the hangar/catapault area cleared as much as possible (fuel lines purged, ammunition stored in the magazines, etc). Given that, it won't be as safe as a normal cruiser but it shouldn't be TOO terrible a risk. Getting into a surprise night engagement, though, would not be good, but the ship's speed will help there as far as getting the heck away from the area. Essentially, she's about like Tone with 15cm vs 20.3cm guns.

19

Wednesday, June 24th 2009, 9:55pm

Quoted

Originally posted by perdedor99
I think is different and that is enough reason for me to built it. Being assigned to this ship on the other hand is another story. Looks to me like a big kaboom on the making.


And that's also one of the main reason for me to built it ;). Btw it's planed that the ship will be laid down at the end of 1938.

And with it's speed of ~ 35kn i think it's fast enough to engange the biggest troubles.