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1

Saturday, January 26th 2013, 12:01pm

Royal Navy Ships for 1944

This is my first subsim design I've posted here. I've looked at several other designs and feel this is ok but I'd welcome a critical eye. One point I'm not sure about is how much reserve buoyancy to have, the benchmark seems around 15-20% and I'm guessing too much is a serious bugger for fast diving. Any comments are more than welcome.

This class (as yet unamed but likely to be the Z or A Class) is a development of the Thames Class but these are being built for the Far East. I want range but don't want an sub too big. I'm still not tempted to ditch the deck-gun and I feel on a long-range type as this such a weapon is still useful.

1944 Long-Range Submarine
Date: 1944
Oceanic
Armament:
- Guns: 1x 102mm (4 in)
- Torpedoes: 7 21in torpedo tubes
- Mines: 14 (also simming reload torpedoes)
Electric HP: 2,000hp
Diesel HP: 3,000hp
Crew: 50
Weight fuel & batts: 650 tons
Light Displacement: 1,060 tons
Loaded Displacement/Kerb Weight: 1,424 tons
Full Displacement: 1,865 tons
Reserve buoyancy: 24%
Max Surf Speed: 14 knots
Max Sub Speed: 8.6 knots

Length: 75.1 m
Beam: 8.1 m
Draft: 6.1 m
Crush depth: 250 m
Tons Oil: 350 tons
Tons Battery: 300 tons
Cruise speed: 12 knots
Submerged speed: 8 knots
Surface Range: 11014 nm@12 knots
Submerged Range: 73 nm@6 knots

Notes: 42 tons miscellaneous weight for radar and ASDIC and hydrophones and some extra gear and twin 0.661in HMG AA mount

2

Sunday, January 27th 2013, 11:00am

A proposed replacement for the Great War-era Insect Class gunboats.

Bee Class, Great Britain Coastal Gunboat laid down 1944

Displacement:
389 t light; 439 t standard; 462 t normal; 480 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
200.60 ft / 200.00 ft x 32.00 ft x 6.00 ft (normal load)
61.14 m / 60.96 m x 9.75 m x 1.83 m

Armament:
2 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1944 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 - 3.70" / 94.0 mm guns in single mounts, 25.00lbs / 11.34kg shells, 1943 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (1x4 guns), 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mount
on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
6 - 0.66" / 16.8 mm guns in single mounts, 0.14lbs / 0.06kg shells, 1940 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 275 lbs / 125 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 250

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.50" / 38 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 0.50" / 13 mm -
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

- Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 1,000 shp / 746 Kw = 15.06 kts
Range 5,000nm at 8.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 42 tons

Complement:
49 - 64

Cost:
£0.310 million / $1.240 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 34 tons, 7.5 %
Armour: 21 tons, 4.5 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 17 tons, 3.6 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 4 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 26 tons, 5.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 248 tons, 53.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 73 tons, 15.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 60 tons, 13.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
908 lbs / 412 Kg = 8.4 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.31
Metacentric height 1.5 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 11.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.29
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.63

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.421
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.25 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.14 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 43
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 3.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 11.50 ft / 3.51 m
- Forecastle (12 %): 10.50 ft / 3.20 m
- Mid (50 %): 8.50 ft / 2.59 m
- Quarterdeck (12 %): 8.50 ft / 2.59 m
- Stern: 8.50 ft / 2.59 m
- Average freeboard: 9.17 ft / 2.79 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 139.7 %
Waterplane Area: 3,993 Square feet or 371 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 45 lbs/sq ft or 219 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.59
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Class Names: HMS Bee, Scarab, Aphis, Cricket, Mantis, Moth, Tarantula, Gnat

Electronics
One Type 279 Navigation RDF set

3

Sunday, January 27th 2013, 1:38pm

That seems to be a lot of heavy ordnance on a very small hull; what sort of mission do you envision for these gunboats?

4

Sunday, January 27th 2013, 2:11pm

These are designed for the African coasts, so would be vital in supporting shore operations along the East African coast, I see these more as supporting batteries than simply patrol gunboats. They are essentially 1940s copies of the Insect Class but with a few modern touches so could be used on larger rivers too.

Total numbers would be 4-8 ships.

5

Sunday, January 27th 2013, 5:31pm

1944 Naval Planning Committee

Construction continues on the five Admiral Class battleships. No further alterations have been made to the plans and construction continues on schedule for completion during 1945.
All existing capital ships have now been refitted.
There was a review of the light escort battlecruiser designs and Super-Heavy Cruisers. The 12in joint programme with the United States did not reach fruition and in the face of Treasury opposition and the lack of slack in the building programme the Committee agreed to stop all work on such ships for the foreseeable future. The new First Sea Lord, Admiral of the Fleet John Tovey felt these ships were not of enough value for their expensive costs and that by the time they complete they would be inferior to other forms of anti-cruiser weapons.

The two new fleet carriers HMS Audacious and HMS Formidable (Carriers M & N) have completed and are working up in home waters before transfer overseas. HMS Leviathan and HMS Magnificent (Carriers O & P) should complete in 1945 and construction is on track. The Swiftsure Class is now undergoing refit with the final such refit, HMS Warrior, to complete during 1944. It is still planned to decommission HMS Ark Royal and HMS Majestic when HMS Leviathan and HMS Magnificent commission. A proposal was raised by the Commander in Chief Fleet Air Aim, Admiral R. G. H. Henderson, to keep one of the Ark Royals in service as a training carrier. It was pointed out that an extensive refit would be needed and the operating costs were likely to force the issue in favour of decommissioning. The Vice Chief of Naval Staff, Admiral Lancelot Holland did support the retaining of another fleet carrier for use in wartime.
The Fifth Sea Lord Admiral Sir Denis William Boyd stated that he wanted detailed design work on the 1945-Pattern light fleet carriers to begin during 1944 to allow both planned ships (Carriers K & L) to lay down in 1945.. The DNC’s sketch outlines of proposed designs were discussed but no agreement was reached whether to acquire an armoured design or a simpler design based on the current Ocean Class.

The cruiser programme remains paused until the new automatic 6in mount is ready. The DNO reported on progress during the past twelve months which was far from encouraging. The DGD outlined similar problems with the new 4.5in mounts and it was agreed that the DNO estimate that the 6in automatic would be at least a year behind schedule was accurate. The DNC was asked to hold all designs for new light cruisers using the new guns until accurate weight and space requirements were known. Such cruisers are unlikely to now begin construction until 1947. Plans for another five Minotaurs were reversed due to Treasury objections but then were re-ordered in 1943 as slip space was available and work is now well underway on all five. The proposed rebuilding of the I Class light cruisers to match the H Class AACL conversions has been abandoned. All the C Class AACL conversions will be decommissioned by mid-1944 to release manpower and save money.
The Howe Class cruisers are finishing their rebuilding programme. Plans to rebuild other heavy cruisers have been placed on hold and any work on the Kent Class was ruled out as uneconomic.

The destroyer holiday will end in 1944. Eight Weapon Class destroyers have been ordered and another eight will follow in 1945. The DNC has had to revise some aspects of the design and the redesign was signed off at the meeting. Concerns over weight and future growth forced the removal of the 6pdr AA guns in favour of lighter 2pdr twins and the quintuple torpedo tubes have been replaced with quadruple mounts. The DEE (Director of Electrical Engineering) was concerned at the amount of new ASDIC equipment and potential problems with reliability. He proposed postponing the new sets and fitting them in the follow-on Battle Class. The Director Anti-Submarine Warfare, Admiral Sir George Creasy, insisted the prototypes had performed well and would be ready in time for the initial commissioning’s in 1945, while the DNO pointed out that the new Mortar B required these ASDIC sets to be effective.
The decision the remove the 6pdr AA guns from the Weapons reinforced the decision to press ahead with the planned O Class Anti-Aircraft Destroyers. A single flotilla is planned and the DNC provided a design based off the Weapon hull but armed with two twin 4.5in mounts and three twin 6pdr mounts and this class will be the first RN destroyers not to carry torpedo armament. A new turbo-electric drive is planned but concerns were raised over the low speed of 32 knots and some changes have been requested.
Plans have been made for refitting and rearming the A, B, C and D classes for further service but refit work has been halted and resources will go to new ships unless an emergency situation forces a reconsideration. The need to save money and release manpower will see two flotillas of V&W Class AA destroyers decommissioned in 1944 and the rest will decommission in 1945. Although several fleet commanders have objected to this move the DGD confirmed that they no longer meet modern standards and the hulls are rapidly wearing out. The First Sea Lord noted that new construction could not replace them on a like-for-like basis but the DNC will begin examining possible C and D Class emergency conversions.
The ‘Special’ has been confirmed for the 1945 Programme and is now in detailed design.

The River Class sloops continue to commission in batches of four and four have completed and another four are planned for 1944. The Calliope Class are the product of available 4.5in twin mounts from the old C Class conversions and four are currently under construction and Treasury sanction has been obtained for a fifth. These feature heavy AA armament. No further AA Sloops are planned but given the low construction rates of the River Class replacement of the Defiant Class will take several years.

Two further Glen Class Landing Ship Docks should complete in 1944, these are of an improved design and are slightly larger and have more internal space. Four Beach Class Landing Ship Tanks based on a Canadian design are now planned for construction and four more will be built by 1946.

Several Great War-era Fly and Insect Class river gunboats will be decommissioned as they are aging rapidly and condition has deteriorated. A replacement for African Service, the Bee Class has been drawn up as an Insect replacement armed with two single 6in guns and two 3.7in Army-pattern howitzers and good AA defences. At least four will be built during 1944.

Plans for a new ocean-going submarine were strengthened by diplomatic changes in the Far East. Now long-range submarines can be based there, plans for a repeat Thames Class have been enlarged into a new design with a range of 11,000 miles while maintaining compact dimensions. A 4in deck gun has been retained as it was felt that utility of a gun remains (not least as a method to save torpedoes). At least five will be built during 1944-45.

Five Vosper 75 Foot Type G vessels have been built but plans for two more flotillas of MTBs remain approved for the Persian Gulf area, but work may be postponed.

6

Monday, January 28th 2013, 6:58pm

Going back to look at the submarine, I think I would trade a bit of range or reserve buoyancy for two or three knots more speed.

7

Tuesday, January 29th 2013, 9:40am

What level of reserve buoyance should I ideally aim for?

8

Tuesday, January 29th 2013, 6:07pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
What level of reserve buoyance should I ideally aim for?

I tend to look for 10-15%, myself, although if it's higher and I've achieved all my design goals, that's not too much a problem. My main thought is that the surfaced speed is a bit pokey at the moment, and you've still got some buoyancy which could be traded off to get it another two knots or so.

9

Wednesday, January 30th 2013, 4:18pm

I have tinkered a little more and I agree the extra speed is useful.


1944 Long-Range Submarine
Date: 1944
Oceanic
Armament:
- Guns: 1x 102mm (4 in)
- Torpedoes: 7 21in torpedo tubes
- Mines: 14 (also simming reload torpedoes)
Electric HP: 2,500hp
Diesel HP: 4,500hp
Crew: 60
Weight fuel & batts: 650 tons
Light Displacement: 1,194 tons
Loaded Displacement/Kerb Weight: 1,558 tons
Full Displacement: 1,865 tons
Reserve buoyancy: 16%
Max Surf Speed: 16 knots
Max Sub Speed: 9.3 knots

Length: 75.1 m
Beam: 8.1 m
Draft: 6.1 m
Crush depth: 250 m
Tons Oil: 350 tons
Tons Battery: 300 tons
Cruise speed: 12 knots
Submerged speed: 9 knots
Surface Range: 11014 nm@12 knots
Submerged Range: 73 nm@6 knots

Notes: 42 tons miscellaneous weight for radar and ASDIC and hydrophones and some extra gear and twin 0.661in HMG AA mount

10

Wednesday, February 6th 2013, 5:39pm

A small little multi-purpose ship I've been playing with lately. Not likely to be built in peacetime.

192 Ton Patrol Class, Great Britain Patrol Vessel laid down 1943

Displacement:
192 t light; 199 t standard; 209 t normal; 217 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
130.00 ft / 130.00 ft x 24.00 ft x 5.00 ft (normal load)
39.62 m / 39.62 m x 7.32 m x 1.52 m

Armament:
1 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 12.00lbs / 5.44kg shells, 1917 Model
Anti-aircraft gun in deck mount
on centreline forward
2 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (1x2 guns), 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
4 - 0.66" / 16.8 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.14lbs / 0.06kg shells, 1943 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 17 lbs / 8 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 250

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

- Conning tower: 0.50" / 13 mm

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 1 shaft, 1,601 shp / 1,194 Kw = 18.03 kts
Range 2,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 18 tons

Complement:
26 - 35

Cost:
£0.094 million / $0.377 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2 tons, 1.1 %
Armour: 1 tons, 0.5 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1 tons, 0.3 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 41 tons, 19.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 97 tons, 46.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 17 tons, 8.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 23.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
391 lbs / 177 Kg = 29.0 x 3.0 " / 76 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 0.7 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 12.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.06
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.469
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.42 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 11.40 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 69 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 12.50 ft / 3.81 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Mid (60 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m (6.50 ft / 1.98 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 6.50 ft / 1.98 m
- Stern: 6.50 ft / 1.98 m
- Average freeboard: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 140.0 %
Waterplane Area: 1,933 Square feet or 180 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 138 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 29 lbs/sq ft or 139 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.81
- Longitudinal: 6.77
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent


One Type 279 MTB navigation set
One Type 141 Asdic
Two DCR and four DCT with 42 DC (or replacable with minesweeping equipment)

11

Sunday, June 16th 2013, 5:17pm

With all the carrier discussions and because I haven't done any carriers in SS for some time and because I've still got two pencilled in the long-term programme here is a possible British light carrier.

Any comments are welcome. Even if the design isn't built for the RN it could be made available for export.


Carriers K, L, Great Britain Aircraft Carrier laid down 1945

Displacement:
15,093 t light; 15,565 t standard; 17,844 t normal; 19,666 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
666.28 ft / 650.00 ft x 96.00 ft x 18.50 ft (normal load)
203.08 m / 198.12 m x 29.26 m x 5.64 m

Armament:
16 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 5.65lbs / 2.56kg shells, 1945 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
12 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1941 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
24 - 0.66" / 16.8 mm guns (4x6 guns), 0.14lbs / 0.07kg shells, 1945 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 118 lbs / 53 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 1,500

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 170.00 ft / 51.82 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 40 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm -
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm -
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm -

- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 115,000 shp / 85,790 Kw = 31.14 kts
Range 12,000nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,101 tons

Complement:
771 - 1,003

Cost:
£6.544 million / $26.176 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 15 tons, 0.1 %
Armour: 1,816 tons, 10.2 %
- Belts: 201 tons, 1.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 18 tons, 0.1 %
- Armour Deck: 1,598 tons, 9.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 2,904 tons, 16.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,109 tons, 34.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,750 tons, 15.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 4,250 tons, 23.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
29,437 lbs / 13,352 Kg = 5,209.6 x 2.2 " / 57 mm shells or 3.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
Metacentric height 6.5 ft / 2.0 m
Roll period: 15.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.06

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0.541
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.77 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.50 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 31.00 ft / 9.45 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 31.00 ft / 9.45 m (21.00 ft / 6.40 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Stern: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Average freeboard: 23.50 ft / 7.16 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 224.0 %
Waterplane Area: 43,183 Square feet or 4,012 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 149 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 107 lbs/sq ft or 522 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.21
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform


Belt is box armour around magazines

Hangar deck: 545 x 65 x 17.5ft
Served by two 55 x 44ft lifts with capacity for 30,000lbs
Two hydralic accelerators with capacity for 30,000lbs aircraft
Arrestor gear of 10 wires, 1 trickle wire, 2 forward wires and two safety barriers

48 aircraft usually carried (4x 12 aircraft squadrons)
6 crated spare aircraft carried for attrition replacement

HoOmAn

Keeper of the Sacred Block Coefficient

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12

Sunday, June 16th 2013, 10:03pm

A carrier that size needs a main AA gun heavier than 57mm.

I also think 57mm and 40mm AA guns are too close from a ballistic point of view. Doesn't make sense to me.

I sense that ship is already prepared to take on jets? 30,000lbs planes are rare in the piston-engine-era.

13

Sunday, June 16th 2013, 10:20pm

Dimensionally and tonnage wise, the design is rather like the OTL Majestic class - a few feet shorter perhaps - but the tonnage is nearly spot on.

That said, I find the fact the design only provides for an air group of 48 aircraft to be disappointing - though this too matches the OTL Majestic class. Differing priorities will lead to different design conclusions, but four dozen aircraft is right on the cusp of usefulness for me. Even if it resulted in a somewhat larger vessel, I would want more aircraft.

While I agree with Hoo that the ballistic characteristics of the 57mm and 40mm are rather close, I'll not go so far as to insist that the design must have a larger caliber gun than 57mm. The OTL Majestic class carried only thirty-two 40mm guns as designed, and larger-caliber guns bring with them stability issues.

Again, it depends on doctrine and how that is expressed in design. If the principal responsibility for long range AA defense is expected to depend on escorts equipped for the task, then the carrier itself can be equipped only with high volume close in defense weapons. If the carrier is expected to defend itself against all attacks, then it has to carry long range guns, which can only be carried at the expense of either close-in weapons or aircraft, and the latter is its primary purpose.

This design is intended very much for a niche role - be that wartime replacement, trade protection or sale abroad to a less well-heeled navy. It is not for everyone.

Edit: I also have to second Hoo's inquiry about the catapult capacity. 30,000 pounds is very large for a hydraulic catapult; the H-8 catapults on the OTL Essex class had a maximum capacity of only 15,000 pounds or so. Now and aircraft similar to the Grumman F7F would max out at around 25,000 pounds Max T-O weight, but I do not think that OTL US carrier catapults exceeded the capacities of the H8 until the adoption of steam catapults in the 1950s.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "BruceDuncan" (Jun 16th 2013, 10:45pm)


14

Monday, June 17th 2013, 5:51am

If The Crown feels it needs more carriers, I think it's resources would be better spent on overhauling and retaining Ark Royal and Majestic than building two CVLs.

15

Monday, June 17th 2013, 10:51am

The design is basically the OTL Centaur class.

The 30,000lb requirement is based on OTL information. In late 1942 the Joint Technical Committee had forseen a need for arrestor gear and accelerators capable of 30,000lb. 1945 plans for future refits of the Majestics included 20,000lb lifts, arrestor gear and accelerator as the 30,000lb couldn't be retrofitted to them. The Ark Royal and Eagle completed with 30,000lb BH.5 catapults (30,000lb at 75 knots, 14,000lbs at 85 knots). The BH.5 was the limit of cable and sheave/ hydraulic technology. Given these ships (if ever built) would probably not lay down until 1946 and complete about 1948ish I don't see a great problem with the BH.5.

The launch rate during the Malta studies was one aircraft every 40 seconds per catapult (i.e. one every 20 secs using two catapults). In 1945, the DACR wanted this reduced to 15 secs using two catapults.

The 4.5in guns are a thorny issue. They have use, and the preceding Oceans have them, but as the RN standardises on the auto Mk VI it going to impose difficulties in terms of adequate arcs and large enough magazines. I'm not really satisfied with the stability and seakeeping of this design yet either.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Hood" (Jun 17th 2013, 10:54am)


16

Monday, June 17th 2013, 2:22pm

Given that the design matches the OTL Colossus/Majestic, I think it quite unlikely that a carrier this small would be able to operate 30,000 pound aircraft in any numbers to make the exercise worthwhile.

The Colossus/Majestics were fitted BH.3 catapults with max launch weights of 20,000 pounds, and I think that would represent an upper limit of what would be reasonable for such small carriers. The BH.5 was fitted in far larger vessels.

17

Wednesday, June 19th 2013, 12:21pm

It's not far off a Centaur, Carrier K is 6ft beamier but about 20-30 feet shorter (wl length).


Here is a possible British Antarctic ship, based on the Challenger survey ship but beefed up with all the usual extra plating and excess hull strength. Given the accumulation of ice possible topside I've made 1.20 stability the absolute minimum.

Terra Nova, Great Britain Antarctic Survey Ship laid down 1944

Displacement:
1,112 t light; 1,146 t standard; 1,666 t normal; 2,082 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
231.70 ft / 225.00 ft x 36.00 ft x 13.00 ft (normal load)
70.62 m / 68.58 m x 10.97 m x 3.96 m

Armament:
2 - 0.66" / 16.8 mm guns in single mounts, 0.14lbs / 0.07kg shells, 1936 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 0 lbs / 0 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 5,000

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 1.20" / 30 mm 131.99 ft / 40.23 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Ends: 1.20" / 30 mm 87.99 ft / 26.82 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
5.02 ft / 1.53 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 90 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm 0.50" / 13 mm -

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 7,000 shp / 5,222 Kw = 20.08 kts
Range 12,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 935 tons

Complement:
129 - 169

Cost:
£0.430 million / $1.722 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Armour: 77 tons, 4.7 %
- Belts: 77 tons, 4.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 179 tons, 10.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 581 tons, 34.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 554 tons, 33.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 275 tons, 16.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
4,448 lbs / 2,018 Kg = 30,804.7 x 0.7 " / 17 mm shells or 1.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
Metacentric height 1.6 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 12.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.87

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.554
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.25 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 15.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 27
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.00 ft / 0.91 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 17.04 ft / 5.19 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 54.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 138.2 %
Waterplane Area: 5,673 Square feet or 527 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 235 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 50 lbs/sq ft or 244 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.88
- Longitudinal: 7.72
- Overall: 1.10
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Misc Weight
90 tons for survey/ research crew qaurters, 3 tons per person
120 tons for survey equipment and deck handling gear
35 tons for arcticisation
30 tons reserve

18

Friday, August 23rd 2013, 3:36pm

Not a new ship. This is the revised SS report for a refitted HMS Ocean as a trials ship for the Mac Taggert, Scott & Co. Ltd. steam catapult. The modifications are like the historical HMS Perseus with the catapult mounted above the flight deck. Also, some new radars are fitted for when the trials are done and for testing and fighter-interception trials.
The ship will be refitted under the 25% rules. Ocean will probably remain on trials for at least 18 months if not longer.

HMS Ocean, Great Britain Aircraft Carrier laid down 1937

Displacement:
13,292 t light; 13,682 t standard; 15,942 t normal; 17,749 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
661.04 ft / 650.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 18.50 ft (normal load)
201.48 m / 198.12 m x 24.38 m x 5.64 m

Armament:
8 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns (4x2 guns), 45.00lbs / 20.41kg shells, 1935 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 1941 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1941 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
12 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1941 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 464 lbs / 210 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 250

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 160.00 ft / 48.77 m 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 38 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm 0.50" / 13 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm -
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm -

- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 92,000 shp / 68,632 Kw = 30.11 kts
Range 12,000nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,067 tons

Complement:
709 - 922

Cost:
£4.750 million / $19.001 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 58 tons, 0.4 %
Armour: 1,648 tons, 10.3 %
- Belts: 235 tons, 1.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 32 tons, 0.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,381 tons, 8.7 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 2,550 tons, 16.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,486 tons, 34.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,650 tons, 16.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 3,550 tons, 22.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
23,141 lbs / 10,496 Kg = 507.9 x 4.5 " / 114 mm shells or 2.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 4.4 ft / 1.3 m
Roll period: 16.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.05
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.580
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.13 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.50 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.00 ft / 0.91 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 18.96 ft / 5.78 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 79.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 180.5 %
Waterplane Area: 37,326 Square feet or 3,468 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 148 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 109 lbs/sq ft or 533 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.11
- Longitudinal: 0.96
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

HMS Ocean Refit Notes

Belt is box armour around magazines

Hangar deck: 545 x 60 x 17.5ft
Served by two 40 x 33ft lifts with capacity for 15,000lbs
One hydralic accelerator with capacity for 15,000lbs aircraft
Arrestor gear of 8 wires, 1 trickle wire, 2 forward wires and two safety barriers

48 aircraft usually carried (4x 12 aircraft squadrons) [during trials six aircraft only]
6 crated spare aircraft carried for attrition replacement [removed during trials]

Electric Equipment

One Hieght Finding Type 277 set
One Target Indidcation Type 287 set
Four CRBF directors with Type 988
VHF Direction Finder Type 295Q

Refit Notes
Twin 6pdr mounts replaced with updated Mk.III mounts
Octuple 2pdr pom-poms replaced by new pattern 40mm 2pdr twin mounts
Sextuple machine-gun mounts replaced by new pattern 40mm 2pdr twin mounts
Addition of steam catapult in deck house along deck
Two 150kW diesel generators added
New RDF fit as above

19

Monday, August 26th 2013, 5:01pm

There have been two very slight mistakes made with the Admiral Class.
First, a typo on the reports posted since 1939. The completion date was listed as May 1945 but actually should have been May 1944. Since there is still a bit of outstanding tonnage, the remaining final instalment will be paid next quarter.
Second, half the names assigned are already in use by several heavy cruisers designed by RLBH so... rather than rename them (unlucky) I've assigned new names. HMS Nelson, Rodney, Fisher, Duke of York, Pound.

Here is the final SS report with full up to date features.

Admiral Class, Great Britain Battleship laid down 1939

Displacement:
57,363 t light; 60,355 t standard; 62,712 t normal; 64,597 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
881.00 ft / 875.00 ft x 123.00 ft x 33.00 ft (normal load)
268.53 m / 266.70 m x 37.49 m x 10.06 m

Armament:
12 - 16.50" / 419 mm guns (4x3 guns), 2,500.00lbs / 1,133.98kg shells, 1935 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
20 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns (10x2 guns), 45.00lbs / 20.41kg shells, 1943 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 1941 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1943 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 31,020 lbs / 14,070 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 540.00 ft / 164.59 m 16.50 ft / 5.03 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 95 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.75" / 70 mm 540.00 ft / 164.59 m 30.00 ft / 9.14 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 12.0" / 305 mm 12.0" / 305 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 3.00" / 76 mm
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm -

- Armour deck: 6.50" / 165 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 170,000 shp / 126,820 Kw = 30.09 kts
Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,243 tons

Complement:
1,980 - 2,575

Cost:
£32.631 million / $130.524 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3,520 tons, 5.6 %
Armour: 23,032 tons, 36.7 %
- Belts: 6,240 tons, 10.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,648 tons, 2.6 %
- Armament: 5,005 tons, 8.0 %
- Armour Deck: 10,036 tons, 16.0 %
- Conning Tower: 102 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 4,600 tons, 7.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 25,911 tons, 41.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,349 tons, 8.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 0.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
94,018 lbs / 42,646 Kg = 41.9 x 16.5 " / 419 mm shells or 15.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 8.2 ft / 2.5 m
Roll period: 18.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 59 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.71
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.09

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.618
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.11 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 34.26 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 34.00 ft / 10.36 m
- Forecastle (18 %): 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Mid (70 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Quarterdeck (18 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Stern: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Average freeboard: 24.88 ft / 7.58 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 194.7 %
Waterplane Area: 83,458 Square feet or 7,753 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 239 lbs/sq ft or 1,168 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.20
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Class Names: HMS Nelson, Rodney, Fisher, Duke of York, Pound

Radar Equipment List
Gunnery Director Radar Type 284M on three main directors
Gunnery Director Radar Type 289 on all six 57mm directors
Gunnery Director Radar Type 288 on four 4.5in directors
Air Search Radar Type 971
Surface Search Radar Type 278
Passive Radio Intercept Equipment Type 293, 293P/M/Q/O
Passive Radar Intercept Type 297
Missile Guidance Jammer Type 296

Armour Notes
Deck armour: 6 inch thick main deck with a 0.5in splinter protection deck above the engine rooms and magazines at lower deck level which joins onto bottom of belt and TB system
Torpedo bulkheads: triple bottom, quadruple side bulkhead system air/ fuel/ fuel/ air with backing bulkheads of 0.5in/ 1in/ 1in and 0.25in respectively

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Hood" (Aug 27th 2013, 11:49am)


20

Tuesday, August 27th 2013, 12:17am

Sounds like there might be some early retirements in BuShips...