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Saturday, July 23rd 2005, 4:25pm

Saint Class 2nd Class Cruiser

- 152/53 M1928 guns in duple turrets, which double the rate of fire to 8rpm from the previous M1924.

- 16x100/65 AA guns give impressive secondary capability and good arcs of fire.

- Triple 600mm TT give more punch at close ranges.

- Improved armour over Condottieri, but not as good as Zara. Still good against 152mm fire.

- No aircraft. Those wierd sort of hangar things admidships are for storing the boats in two tiers.

Saint Class, Italian Light Cruiser laid down 1928

7,936 t light; 8,259 t standard; 9,374 t normal; 10,267 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
608.99 ft / 590.55 ft x 60.70 ft x 20.34 ft (normal load)
185.62 m / 180.00 m x 18.50 m x 6.20 m

8 - 5.98" / 152 mm guns (4x2 guns), 110.23lbs / 50.00kg shells, 1928 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (8x2 guns), 33.07lbs / 15.00kg shells, 1928 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm guns (4x3 guns), 3.86lbs / 1.75kg shells, 1928 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
12 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1928 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 1,460 lbs / 662 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
12 - 23.6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.72" / 120 mm 393.70 ft / 120.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.31" / 135 mm 2.76" / 70 mm 3.94" / 100 mm
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 5.91" / 150 mm

Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 75,000 shp / 55,950 Kw = 31.54 kts
Range 4,500nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,008 tons

476 - 619

£2.864 million / $11.458 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 173 tons, 1.8 %
Armour: 1,815 tons, 19.4 %
- Belts: 759 tons, 8.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 334 tons, 3.6 %
- Armour Deck: 666 tons, 7.1 %
- Conning Tower: 57 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 2,335 tons, 24.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,562 tons, 38.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,438 tons, 15.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
11,451 lbs / 5,194 Kg = 106.9 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 1.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.26
Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 13.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.28
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.06

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.450
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.73 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.30 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Mid (37 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m (13.12 ft / 4.00 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Stern: 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 17.03 ft / 5.19 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 103.1 %
Waterplane Area: 22,864 Square feet or 2,124 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 118 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 100 lbs/sq ft or 490 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.14
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate


Saturday, July 23rd 2005, 8:12pm

I think the secondary armament's pretty heavy for a light cruiser. The two superfiring mounts aft would seem to limit each other's ability to shoot to the sides; meanwhile, the top view of the ship seems to show the four aft mounts all at the same level, at least as I understand it.

A little slow for an offensive platform, but a tough escort for a larger ship.


Saturday, July 23rd 2005, 10:33pm

The "doubled" secondaries seem to be historical Italian practice (or at least idea), see the pic here .


Saturday, July 23rd 2005, 10:56pm

The aftmost mounts should be raised above the others. Then they can fire over X and Y turrets. The Plan view isn't entirely correct, i'll fix it.

Little slow, I've said before that unless you have a 2-4knt advantage, speeds are fairly comparable. 4knt+ would be more decisive.


Sunday, July 24th 2005, 3:03am

Impressive armor

Let me guess, the misc weight is spare barrels for the 100mm/65. With the barrel wear you're going to get with a muzzle velocity around 1000m/sec, you're going to need a few.


Sunday, July 24th 2005, 6:01am

I seemed to have missed that info, most 3"/4" weapons I've seen are around 45 cal, but if the Italians wish to bare the burden of extremely low barrel life I'm not going to complain.


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Sunday, July 24th 2005, 11:43am

I agree with others - her superfiring AA guns aft seem to be odd somehow. A cramped deck aft and I´d also expect issues with top heaviness.

I also wonder about her funnel layout. The forward funnel is a little bit too far aft optically, methinks. I´d put it between the AA rangefinders. The gap between those funnels would then suggest a unit layout for her machinery. As it is one can´t say what her machinery layout looks like. Could be two sets of turrets aft of her second funnel as there doesn´t seem to be enough space between boiler rooms (assumed to be under the funnels)...

Otherwise a very powerful design on paper....


Sunday, July 24th 2005, 11:49am

I don't think so really. The Russian 4"/60 from 1911 had a barrel life of 800rounds. The German 105/65 from 1933 had a barrel life of 2950rounds. The German 88/76 had a barrel life of 3200rounds I think 2500-3000rounds for barrel life is acceptable. The higher velocity guns make for increased AA capability. The time of flight is shorter, so you can allow less deflection, making the guns more accurate. Stuart, any idea when sabots started to be used for shells?

The lower velocity AA weapons, such as 40-cal weapons, and the 5"/25 have reduced recoil over longer weapons. This makes the gunhouses less cramped and improves barrel life. However this 100/65 still has less recoil than the 5"/25. Work it out if you want to.

Then again, looking at the Russian 100/50, it has a barrel life of 500rounds according to Navweaps.


Sunday, July 24th 2005, 1:01pm

I've added an internal drawing that should hopefully clear things up a bit. I've fiddled around with the funnels a bit as well.


Sunday, July 24th 2005, 1:42pm

The top view makes more sense now. Can't comment on the internal view except to ask if this is a layout used historically (somewhere).


Sunday, July 24th 2005, 2:24pm


The other main alteration to the previous concepts was in propulsion. There were now eight boilers, paired in four separate spaces. The two forward spaces were separated by the starboard engine room, that for the port shaft being aft of the after boiler room. This layout resulted in a reduction of about 100 tons in weight, and a reduction in the length of machinery spaces to the advantage of the protection scheme. The designed power was reduced to 100,000shp, with a consequent reduction in maximum speed, but in service this was of no importance

That is about Abruzzi/Garibaldi. I seem to have got it sort of correct, but not entirely.


Monday, July 25th 2005, 12:24am

APDS shells


Stuart, any idea when sabots started to be used for shells?

Not until tanks started getting thick armor, around, say, 1944. I recall a trial of a Brit 6 Pounder (57mm) shooting APDS against a captured Panther about then.


Monday, July 25th 2005, 1:42am

No aircraft on an 8000 ton 1928 cruiser?

I guess it's not going to do cruiser things on its own.



Monday, July 25th 2005, 4:17am

A "smaller" cruiser (2nd rate) for in the Mediterranean. Will probably never be out of range of land based aircraft or with a convoy-fleet it won't need planes.

(besides there is plenty of space of one on the aft deck)


Monday, July 25th 2005, 7:30am

There is nothing 'small' or 'smaller' about an 8000ton cruiser. I don't know I'd want to depend on land based air out in the Indian Ocean.

So this is a single role fleet escort ship?



Monday, July 25th 2005, 9:41am

This is batch I. She will more be a multipurpose cruiser with different batches optimised for different things. E.g. I might land the torpedoes and add a catapult, or more flag facilities. Or I might just wait until the VTOL autogyro is perfected.