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Well, if you make a couple assumptions, the historical LST2 design can be made to work out OK in SS:

Landing Ship, Tank, United States LST laid down 1938

Displacement:

1,789 t light; 1,834 t standard; 2,023 t normal; 2,175 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught

330.01 ft / 328.00 ft x 50.00 ft x 5.50 ft (normal load)

100.59 m / 99.97 m x 15.24 m x 1.68 m

Armament:

1 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1938 Model

Breech loading gun in deck mount

on centreline aft

8 - 1.10" / 27.9 mm guns in single mounts, 0.67lbs / 0.30kg shells, 1938 Model

Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts

on side ends, evenly spread

8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1938 Model

Machine guns in deck mount

on side, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring

Weight of broadside 19 lbs / 9 kg

Shells per gun, main battery: 300

Armour:

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)

Main: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm -

2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm -

- Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:

Diesel Internal combustion motors,

Geared drive, 2 shafts, 1,667 shp / 1,244 Kw = 12.93 kts

Range 8,000nm at 10.00 kts

Bunker at max displacement = 341 tons

Complement:

150 - 196

Cost:

£0.400 million / $1.602 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:

Armament: 2 tons, 0.1 %

Armour: 7 tons, 0.4 %

- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Armament: 4 tons, 0.2 %

- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Conning Tower: 3 tons, 0.2 %

Machinery: 46 tons, 2.3 %

Hull, fittings & equipment: 954 tons, 47.1 %

Fuel, ammunition & stores: 234 tons, 11.6 %

Miscellaneous weights: 780 tons, 38.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):

8,957 lbs / 4,063 Kg = 663.5 x 3.0 " / 76 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes

Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17

Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m

Roll period: 13.6 seconds

Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 76 %

- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.01

Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.53

Hull form characteristics:

Hull has a flush deck

Block coefficient: 0.785

Length to Beam Ratio: 6.56 : 1

'Natural speed' for length: 18.11 kts

Power going to wave formation at top speed: 27 %

Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50

Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees

Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m

Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):

- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m

- Forecastle (20 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m

- Mid (50 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m

- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m

- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m

- Average freeboard: 16.56 ft / 5.05 m

Ship space, strength and comments:

Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 51.4 %

- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 287.5 %

Waterplane Area: 14,153 Square feet or 1,315 Square metres

Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 225 %

Structure weight / hull surface area: 52 lbs/sq ft or 255 Kg/sq metre

Hull strength (Relative):

- Cross-sectional: 0.94

- Longitudinal: 1.81

- Overall: 1.00

Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent

Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Note: draft is average at light ship, with the ballast tanks pumped out. WIth those tanks full, average draft increases to 11 feet, while speed decreases to 12 knots and sea-keeping drops to 1.35.

Landing Ship, Tank, United States LST laid down 1938

Displacement:

1,789 t light; 1,834 t standard; 2,023 t normal; 2,175 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught

330.01 ft / 328.00 ft x 50.00 ft x 5.50 ft (normal load)

100.59 m / 99.97 m x 15.24 m x 1.68 m

Armament:

1 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1938 Model

Breech loading gun in deck mount

on centreline aft

8 - 1.10" / 27.9 mm guns in single mounts, 0.67lbs / 0.30kg shells, 1938 Model

Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts

on side ends, evenly spread

8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1938 Model

Machine guns in deck mount

on side, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring

Weight of broadside 19 lbs / 9 kg

Shells per gun, main battery: 300

Armour:

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)

Main: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm -

2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm -

- Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:

Diesel Internal combustion motors,

Geared drive, 2 shafts, 1,667 shp / 1,244 Kw = 12.93 kts

Range 8,000nm at 10.00 kts

Bunker at max displacement = 341 tons

Complement:

150 - 196

Cost:

£0.400 million / $1.602 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:

Armament: 2 tons, 0.1 %

Armour: 7 tons, 0.4 %

- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Armament: 4 tons, 0.2 %

- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Conning Tower: 3 tons, 0.2 %

Machinery: 46 tons, 2.3 %

Hull, fittings & equipment: 954 tons, 47.1 %

Fuel, ammunition & stores: 234 tons, 11.6 %

Miscellaneous weights: 780 tons, 38.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):

8,957 lbs / 4,063 Kg = 663.5 x 3.0 " / 76 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes

Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17

Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m

Roll period: 13.6 seconds

Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 76 %

- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.01

Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.53

Hull form characteristics:

Hull has a flush deck

Block coefficient: 0.785

Length to Beam Ratio: 6.56 : 1

'Natural speed' for length: 18.11 kts

Power going to wave formation at top speed: 27 %

Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50

Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees

Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m

Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):

- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m

- Forecastle (20 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m

- Mid (50 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m

- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m

- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m

- Average freeboard: 16.56 ft / 5.05 m

Ship space, strength and comments:

Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 51.4 %

- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 287.5 %

Waterplane Area: 14,153 Square feet or 1,315 Square metres

Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 225 %

Structure weight / hull surface area: 52 lbs/sq ft or 255 Kg/sq metre

Hull strength (Relative):

- Cross-sectional: 0.94

- Longitudinal: 1.81

- Overall: 1.00

Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent

Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Note: draft is average at light ship, with the ballast tanks pumped out. WIth those tanks full, average draft increases to 11 feet, while speed decreases to 12 knots and sea-keeping drops to 1.35.

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "Hrolf Hakonson" (May 3rd 2010, 4:26pm)

## Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan

If you would answer a question for someone unfamiliar with Springsharp, does the complement include troops that might be carried or merely the organic crew? I've noticed that on sims of merchantmen the crew numbers are extremely high.

Thanks,

Springsharp's calculations are based off military ships rather than merchant ships.

According to the springstyle notes regarding merchant ships (which should also be valid for Springsharp), the crew and damage figures need to be divided by 10.

Something I did for fun and posted over at navalism where the Aleutians are part of the Japanese Empire. The ship was simmed for that time period, eventhough the YO-210 was in reality a late WW2 vessel. The original crew figure was 89 - 116, but dividing it by 10 gives me the figure below which is a lot closer to the 6 man crew Keith Colburn has aboard the Wizard. The YO-210 crew is given as 1 Officer 22 Enlisted.

F/V Wizard, Japan Fishing Boat laid down 1916

Displacement:

882 t light; 902 t standard; 1,009 t normal; 1,095 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)

(155.94 ft / 150.70 ft) x 30.00 ft x (13.10 / 14.03 ft)

(47.53 m / 45.93 m) x 9.14 m x (3.99 / 4.28 m)

Machinery:

Diesel Internal combustion motors,

Geared drive, 1 shaft, 1,125 shp / 839 Kw = 13.14 kts

Range 6,050nm at 10.00 kts

Bunker at max displacement = 193 tons

Complement:

9 - 12

Cost:

£0.060 million / $0.240 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:

Armament: 0 tons, 0.0%

Machinery: 42 tons, 4.2%

Hull, fittings & equipment: 180 tons, 17.8%

Fuel, ammunition & stores: 127 tons, 12.6%

Miscellaneous weights: 660 tons, 65.4%

- Hull below water: 430 tons

- Hull above water: 120 tons

- On freeboard deck: 83 tons

- Above deck: 27 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):

1,125 lbs / 510 Kg = 10.4 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes

Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21

Metacentric height 1.2 ft / 0.4 m

Roll period: 11.7 seconds

Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %

- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00

Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:

Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck ,

a normal bow and a round stern

Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.597 / 0.604

Length to Beam Ratio: 5.02 : 1

'Natural speed' for length: 12.28 kts

Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %

Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59

Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 24.00 degrees

Stern overhang: -2.00 ft / -0.61 m

Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):

Fore end, Aft end

- Forecastle: 17.40%, 11.78 ft / 3.59 m, 9.87 ft / 3.01 m

- Forward deck: 25.00%, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 5.25 ft / 1.60 m

- Aft deck: 29.81%, 5.25 ft / 1.60 m, 4.46 ft / 1.36 m

- Quarter deck: 27.79%, 7.96 ft / 2.43 m, 7.96 ft / 2.43 m

- Average freeboard: 7.04 ft / 2.15 m

Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:

Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 73.3%

- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 37.5%

Waterplane Area: 3,222 Square feet or 299 Square metres

Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 136%

Structure weight / hull surface area: 35 lbs/sq ft or 173 Kg/sq metre

Hull strength (Relative):

- Cross-sectional: 0.89

- Longitudinal: 2.71

- Overall: 1.00

Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space

Extremely poor accommodation and workspace room

Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

72 tons = 230 6.5’x6.5’ pots (at 700lbs per pot).

11 tons = deck gear

27 tons = handling cranes

550 tons = storage hold.

Something I did for fun and posted over at navalism where the Aleutians are part of the Japanese Empire. The ship was simmed for that time period, eventhough the YO-210 was in reality a late WW2 vessel. The original crew figure was 89 - 116, but dividing it by 10 gives me the figure below which is a lot closer to the 6 man crew Keith Colburn has aboard the Wizard. The YO-210 crew is given as 1 Officer 22 Enlisted.

F/V Wizard, Japan Fishing Boat laid down 1916

Displacement:

882 t light; 902 t standard; 1,009 t normal; 1,095 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)

(155.94 ft / 150.70 ft) x 30.00 ft x (13.10 / 14.03 ft)

(47.53 m / 45.93 m) x 9.14 m x (3.99 / 4.28 m)

Machinery:

Diesel Internal combustion motors,

Geared drive, 1 shaft, 1,125 shp / 839 Kw = 13.14 kts

Range 6,050nm at 10.00 kts

Bunker at max displacement = 193 tons

Complement:

9 - 12

Cost:

£0.060 million / $0.240 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:

Armament: 0 tons, 0.0%

Machinery: 42 tons, 4.2%

Hull, fittings & equipment: 180 tons, 17.8%

Fuel, ammunition & stores: 127 tons, 12.6%

Miscellaneous weights: 660 tons, 65.4%

- Hull below water: 430 tons

- Hull above water: 120 tons

- On freeboard deck: 83 tons

- Above deck: 27 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):

1,125 lbs / 510 Kg = 10.4 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes

Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21

Metacentric height 1.2 ft / 0.4 m

Roll period: 11.7 seconds

Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %

- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00

Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:

Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck ,

a normal bow and a round stern

Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.597 / 0.604

Length to Beam Ratio: 5.02 : 1

'Natural speed' for length: 12.28 kts

Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %

Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59

Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 24.00 degrees

Stern overhang: -2.00 ft / -0.61 m

Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):

Fore end, Aft end

- Forecastle: 17.40%, 11.78 ft / 3.59 m, 9.87 ft / 3.01 m

- Forward deck: 25.00%, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 5.25 ft / 1.60 m

- Aft deck: 29.81%, 5.25 ft / 1.60 m, 4.46 ft / 1.36 m

- Quarter deck: 27.79%, 7.96 ft / 2.43 m, 7.96 ft / 2.43 m

- Average freeboard: 7.04 ft / 2.15 m

Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:

Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 73.3%

- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 37.5%

Waterplane Area: 3,222 Square feet or 299 Square metres

Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 136%

Structure weight / hull surface area: 35 lbs/sq ft or 173 Kg/sq metre

Hull strength (Relative):

- Cross-sectional: 0.89

- Longitudinal: 2.71

- Overall: 1.00

Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space

Extremely poor accommodation and workspace room

Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

72 tons = 230 6.5’x6.5’ pots (at 700lbs per pot).

11 tons = deck gear

27 tons = handling cranes

550 tons = storage hold.

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "Rooijen10" (May 3rd 2010, 4:57pm)

## Quoted

Also, for civilian merchant ships, divide crew and

damage survival values by 10 - they have small crews, and

lack the extensive compartmentation of naval ships. For

naval transports, divide crew by 5 but leave survival

values unchanged. Adjust your ship report accordingly;

I compute and list Gross Registered Tonnage on the line

below displacement.

What's everyone's opinion?

Other countries have built similar ships (India, France, Russia, and Iberia come to mind immediately) and paid full price. If we change these rules now, then I think they should get a refund (or more probably, if we spend 25% tonnage, quadruple the number of ships they actually built). I'm a bit reluctant to endorse this action.

I've always presumed to budget full tonnage for my purpose-built landing ships simply because that's what's been done before.

## Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson

There's also the option with those older ships that they were built to heavier, more substantial standards, so they can withstand more damage.

In the case of the French and Russian ships I'll accept that, as they're intended to be regularly oceangoing; the majority of WWII LSTs, as I recall, weren't designed to make repeated oceanic crossings. I haven't refreshed my memory on the Iberian and Indian ships recently enough to recall if that's a suitable explanation for them as well.

[SIZE=1](Though since we don't really use the damage ratings from Springsharp, it's kinda a cheap 'out' - I think it'll cause folks, myself included, to spend money on lots of really cheap, easily-damaged ships.)[/SIZE]

With that out of the way I think too many LST's have being built paying full price to now change the construction rules for them. I won't mind personally but maybe other members that already have constructed the named ships could have some issue with it. Let's hear from the members of the board.

If we're costing LSTs the same as DDs (which essentially we've been doing), then that will effectively prohibit large-scale amphibious operations, since no one will be able to afford to build the numbers needed. Operations on the scale of Guadalcanal will remain possible, but larger operations and especially operations where larger numbers of tanks would be landed will be impossible.

Light ship minus misc. weight is a start, but it still results in expensive LSTs. Using this design as an example, an LST (2) will cost just over 1000 tons, about the same as a DE, and 2 of them will cost more than the current USN-standard destroyer. That said, though, it DOES work out fairly well for the bigger, more capable ships like LSDs, where the USS Ashland design costs only about 2600 tons. Still perhaps a bit expensive for an auxilliary, but certainly better than full price.

Other opinions, comments?

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